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MrLadybug



Joined: Nov 27, 2016

Post   Posted: Aug 11, 2017 - 20:39 Reply with quote Back to top

Hello!

I'm used to kick as a dwarf player.

Now I have started playing with Elf Union, and I'm wondering, if I should usually kick as well.

Any advice?

Thanks
mrt1212



Joined: Feb 26, 2013

Post   Posted: Aug 11, 2017 - 21:00 Reply with quote Back to top

It depends. Standard BB answer.

Usually I would not elect to kick with Eulfs unless I really believe I can get a defensive score based on the team match ups - think you have a strip ball player with wrestle and leap and your opponent doesn't have sure hands or a blodger.

The more you play the more you'll be able to intuit correctly when you have good defensive options.

In general I don't elect to kick first with AV7 teams because you're taking 4 blocks with your crappy armor automatically and with 11 players that can turn the tide toot suite.
kummo



Joined: Mar 29, 2016

Post   Posted: Aug 11, 2017 - 21:04 Reply with quote Back to top

Depends. Remember that it is easier to defend with 11 men... but it is also easier to score with 11 men (altho elfs can score with less.. but surely it is harder than with full squad).

You should also note how much damage opponent can do or if you are receiving - how much damage you could do and if it's worth it (pro elfs have cheapish linos so running bench and DP might be worthy.. if oppo has only 11 players you really could do something while having ball especially if you got money for bribe as well).

Pro elfs have fast pieces but it as a whole it isn't much faster than Dark Elfs or humans.. if you like to score a lot this team could do so and scoring one early at least would give opponent pressure.. but you really should have some development on your team (at least 1 sacker, someone retrieving ball after sack and some fast and reliable catchers wouldn't hurt.. thrower needs few skills too to really shine on your 2-turner scoring).. but if you have great sacking abilities then it doesn't (imo) matter that much if you receive or kick (i still prefer to kick so i can try and sack + score on their drive and go for 2-0 win or score more.. this is the case especially if i have oneturner since after the stolen TD if they tie it to 1-1 i still could oneturn for 2-1 and receive on next half going in "status quo" 3-1 win)

Edit: Also note if your opponent has oneturning potential and depending on size of their bench if you can force him to field his oneturner so you can try to hit him/her/it


Last edited by kummo on Aug 11, 2017 - 21:05; edited 1 time in total
MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Aug 11, 2017 - 21:05 Reply with quote Back to top

mrt1212 wrote:

Usually I would not elect to kick with Eulfs unless I really believe I can get a defensive score based on the team match ups - think you have a strip ball player with wrestle and leap and your opponent doesn't have sure hands or a blodger.

Having Kick and a bench are important factors as well.
If you have 11 EU players generally it's better to receive, if you have 13 or more players, Kick and a ball sacker then kicking might be better.

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pythrr



Joined: Mar 07, 2006

Post   Posted: Aug 11, 2017 - 22:55 Reply with quote Back to top

i always receive with dorfs. get ball, score in t8, kill the opposition. if it goes well, you are 1-0 at HT and facing half a team.

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Verminardo



Joined: Sep 27, 2006

Post   Posted: Aug 11, 2017 - 23:26 Reply with quote Back to top

If I want to win, most of the time I kick with Elves. If I want to build the team, most of the time I receive.
licker



Joined: Jul 10, 2009

Post   Posted: Aug 12, 2017 - 01:22 Reply with quote Back to top

Verminardo wrote:
If I want to win, most of the time I kick with Elves. If I want to build the team, most of the time I receive.


Have you tracked your win rate kicking vs. receiving?

We can debate this again, or we can actually start gathering statistics on our results.

If anyone with more time and knowledge than I have would like to actually look at the database and do this for us...

Well that'd be just peachy Smile
Grod



Joined: Sep 30, 2003

Post   Posted: Aug 12, 2017 - 01:23 Reply with quote Back to top

Some times with elves vs bash, receiving in first means you can score in 4 turns and have a decent shot at 2-0 by half time . Even if you start to run out of elves, that's a defendable lead.

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Cavetroll



Joined: Jan 21, 2009

Post   Posted: Aug 12, 2017 - 03:09 Reply with quote Back to top

licker wrote:
Verminardo wrote:
If I want to win, most of the time I kick with Elves. If I want to build the team, most of the time I receive.


Have you tracked your win rate kicking vs. receiving?

We can debate this again, or we can actually start gathering statistics on our results.

If anyone with more time and knowledge than I have would like to actually look at the database and do this for us...

Well that'd be just peachy Smile


licker makes a solid point. Some data would be nice to support either answer.

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Catalyst32



Joined: Jul 14, 2008

Post   Posted: Aug 12, 2017 - 04:11 Reply with quote Back to top

Depends. But after seeing tis discussed multiple times the general consensus always seems to favor KICKING in more situations than RECEIVING.

I'm not going to give any specific advice. You will get good advice on the specifics from others.
What I am going to say is... When in doubt choose KICK.
MrLadybug



Joined: Nov 27, 2016

Post   Posted: Aug 12, 2017 - 05:26 Reply with quote Back to top

Hm, so there is no clear answer.
licker



Joined: Jul 10, 2009

Post   Posted: Aug 12, 2017 - 05:54 Reply with quote Back to top

Catalyst32 wrote:
Depends. But after seeing tis discussed multiple times the general consensus always seems to favor KICKING in more situations than RECEIVING.

I'm not going to give any specific advice. You will get good advice on the specifics from others.
What I am going to say is... When in doubt choose KICK.


I could not disagree more with this.

I will never kick again (with the odd exception of a low bench one turner).

The bizarreness of choosing NOT to have the best chance to be up 1-0 while also having the best chance to NOT lose players before you even get a turn baffles me.

But, as I noted, I only have a very small slice of my own data from BB2 which shows that I never lose with WE when I receive, but I have lost when I kick.
mrt1212



Joined: Feb 26, 2013

Post   Posted: Aug 12, 2017 - 08:02 Reply with quote Back to top

I also disagree - the only teams where its even a consideration are so much less numerous. Elves, Slann and Skaven are the case where I would opt not to receive depending on matchups and including OTTD options, bench, defensive confidence...etc etc.

Every other team I'm going to receive if given the option. Cause I can leverage my MB, my Guard, my DP, my secret weapons from turn 1 with a great chance at ball control and a turn eating score.
PurpleChest



Joined: Oct 25, 2003

Post   Posted: Aug 12, 2017 - 11:11 Reply with quote Back to top

I'm with licker. (and god damn we must stop doing this)

I look for reasons to kick, and almost always dont find them.

But I'd love to see some stats. By race and just brute numbers.

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kummo



Joined: Mar 29, 2016

Post   Posted: Aug 12, 2017 - 14:16 Reply with quote Back to top

I think the stats would be bit tilted towards one side or another unless it takes note on:
- did teams have kick skill or not
- bash or ball
- 11 men or bench
- which team was underdog
- ... etc etc etc

It will be a mess to read.. it is doable but i believe that we can't get simple answer if we just look purely if it's worth kicking or receiving since (imo) thre isn't a general answer for this. It IS situational and because of that the stats should look for the situations when it is beneficial.
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