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prefixcactus



Joined: Aug 11, 2017

Post   Posted: Sep 20, 2017 - 12:17 Reply with quote Back to top

I'm thinking of how to better build my lizard team, and after looking at a number of rosters, I've seen a lot of players with both guard and MB on them, while other players on the same team have neither, and from general BB talk it seems to be a widely known and used skill combo.

I can't really make sense of why combining the two would be somehow better than spreading them out over the whole team (assuming same total number of either skill) since a guarder is only useful insofar as he helps other players make blocks, but does not himself benefit from his guard skill. Therefore, it would make sense to have the other players do the important heavy hitting while the guarder hangs around and provides assists, after which he may or may not throw a "cherry on the cake" block himself after his buddies have removed some of the opposing players. Most likely he won't because he used up his action to move in for the assist.

Am I missing something here?
Domfluff



Joined: Dec 23, 2016

Post   Posted: Sep 20, 2017 - 12:35 Reply with quote Back to top

Guard usage differs by team, but with any reasonably bashy team, one of the more powerful things Guard can do is remove the need to add a third player to assist.

e.g.:

Enemy players = X
Friendly players w/out Guard = O
Friendly players w/Guard = G

To get two 2D blocks on two adjacent players would require an arrangement like this:

XX
OOO

With a Guard player, this becomes:

XX
OG

The Guardless player will block first, with two dice, allowing the Guard player to block the second, also with two dice.

This, as you've mentioned, won't work if you're not starting the turn adjacent... but high Strength, low agility blockers will (should) end up in this kind of situation more often.

In the specific case of Lizards, Block is still the first skill, but Guard and Mighty Blow are great for the second and third advances.
prefixcactus



Joined: Aug 11, 2017

Post   Posted: Sep 20, 2017 - 12:54 Reply with quote Back to top

That Block is the first skill is out of the question, but I gotta decide what to do next. I'm looking at getting two guarders and two MBers (in addition to the krox) and trying to figure out if it's better to make that 4 different sauri or to put both skills on two.
PurpleChest



Joined: Oct 25, 2003

Post   Posted: Sep 20, 2017 - 13:07 Reply with quote Back to top

The answer is 4.27.

Or rather, their is no answer to your question.


The Saurus that gets hit off the field first shouldnt have either guard or MB.

The Saurus that gets fouled should be a rookie.

The ones hitting things should have MB. Unless its hitting dodgy things then it should have MB and tackle.

The ones providing assists (and lizzies don't massively need assists) should have guard.

The one with the ball should have sure hands.

All should have block.

Any that want to move need Break Tackle.

Stand Firm can be useful on 1 or 2.

Dodge is lovely on doubles.




Few of us have the privilege of playing to the level where each piece can have an assigned role and do 'just that', most coaches find that their blitzer will not do all their blitzing, their assisters will be in the fight and hitting stuff, and basically everyone can be useful depending on the in game events.

Don't envision the perfect team for the perfect game of BB, look the build the team that's perfect for the real game of BloodBowl they will likely have to play.

_________________
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I am a barbarian here because i am not understood by anyone
Endzone



Joined: Apr 01, 2008

Post   Posted: Sep 20, 2017 - 13:11 Reply with quote Back to top

Players aren't being given MB and Guard because it is a great combo, they are being given both because they are two of the best skills.
Loew



Joined: Feb 02, 2005

Post   Posted: Sep 20, 2017 - 13:16 Reply with quote Back to top

Guard and MB have a bit of synergy, as guarder often stand in the thick of a fight and there are often opponent players left after the comrades of the guarder did their hits.

I think most of the tips and examples you'll find are from players that were leveled up in times or rulesets when/where the MVP was decided more random (among all player instead of among 1d3 player), so that it was more difficult to level up that one specific saurus.

Generally, almost all Strength access player should get guard and MB eventually... with a young lizard team one valid strategy is to build a dedicated damage blitzer soon (block, MB, tackle, break tackle...) and make other saurus guarder first
JackassRampant



Joined: Feb 26, 2011

Post   Posted: Sep 20, 2017 - 16:34 Reply with quote Back to top

Guard is a good skill used by players who like to be in contact.

Mighty Blow is a good skill used by players who like to be in contact.

They don't synergize on the same player, but if you have them stacked on several players, they do. Especially ST4 AV9 players. Pin down some prone guys with Guard/MB guys, watch them stay down or dodge away. Lock out the weak spot in your line with Guard/MB, make 'em put Guard guys in your MB guys' TZ to get a blitz at an odd angle that can't be followed. Then on your turn you get free MB hits back on their better cogs.

To answer your question about your Sauri:

Build one or two with Block, Tackle, Mighty Blow, Break Tackle, and Guard, in that order. You need a hitter to play vs elves, or that matchup sucks. You kind of want a backup hitter, 'cuz they get pinned down, especially before they get Break Tackle.

Build the rest with Block, Mighty Blow, Guard, Tackle, and Break Tackle, in some order approximating that, with a little change-up maybe if you find you want another Guard or need more mobility or something.

Don't worry about doubles or stats. You can take Dodge or +MA, you can skip them; don't fret your decisions too much so long as they make sense, and don't worry about your skill dice: normals are fine.

_________________
What is Nuffle's tree? Risk its trunk, space the branches. Touchdowns are its fruit.
What is Nuffle's lawn? Inches, squares, and Tackle Zones; reddened blades of grass.
Sp00keh



Joined: Dec 06, 2011

Post   Posted: Sep 20, 2017 - 17:01 Reply with quote Back to top

See this blog and comments, about same topic
https://fumbbl.com/p/blog&c=DrDiscoStu&id=20720

I mentioned malmirs team has a very heavy emphasis on break tackle, first skill before block!
I'm keen on BT for otherwise-impractical blitzes, and to fix positioning mistakes

Build a blitzer w block/frenzy/break tackle/MB. He doesn't need guard.
If you get a stat freak ball carrier, he doesn't need guard or mighty blow.
All other saurus want both guard and MB early
(tho you do also need a tackle early on too)


Last edited by Sp00keh on Sep 20, 2017 - 17:14; edited 1 time in total
kummo



Joined: Mar 29, 2016

Post   Posted: Sep 20, 2017 - 17:11 Reply with quote Back to top

Guard and Mb is great on LOS actions when you are receiving. He will both assist and hit unless you get early turnover.

And you will have LOS blocks on EVERY GAME, sometimes multiple times a game.
Sp00keh



Joined: Dec 06, 2011

Post   Posted: Sep 20, 2017 - 17:18 Reply with quote Back to top

Sometimes you can out-muscle the LOS with guards and krox even when kicking, too. Preventing incoming blocks.
Typically the game is already won at this point tho
Sp00keh



Joined: Dec 06, 2011

Post   Posted: Sep 20, 2017 - 17:36 Reply with quote Back to top

To answer original query, yes spreading the skills makes sense. Say you have a blitzer, a tackler and 4 other saurus, with 3 skills each:

1 block frenzy break tackle
2 block tackle MB

3 block MB guard
4 block guard MB
5 block MB guard
6 block guard MB

Because, when they they get to 2 skills, a mix of MB and guard works well

In practice, they don't skill up so neatly together so you'll get some with both MB guard and some with nothing

Ultimately though most saurus want MB + guard + block because they're simply the 3 best skills

This also applies directly to chaos dwarf blockers
kummo



Joined: Mar 29, 2016

Post   Posted: Sep 20, 2017 - 18:04 Reply with quote Back to top

Sp00keh wrote:
This also applies directly to chaos dwarf blockers


I also see this a lot in human. 3 blitzers with mb and guard + one killer (mb, tackle and used to have po too.. now maybe frenzy and/or juggs instead)
Bazakastine



Joined: Mar 21, 2014

Post   Posted: Sep 20, 2017 - 18:10 Reply with quote Back to top

So personally I tend to only have 1-2 Sauri who have both Guard and MB at a time. My typical roster if I only rolled normals would look something like this.

1 Block Frenzy BT MB Tackle
1 Block Tackle MB BT Guard
1 Block MB Guard BT Tackle
3 Block Guard Stand firm (these would then look for some combination of BT, MB, and Grab)

Now one thing about Lizards is there are a bunch of different ways to build them and be competitive.

Malmir (https://fumbbl.com/p/team?team_id=757057) has a heavy emphasis on break tackle, lots of potential blitzers on a given play, relatively limited guard, and a ball carrying saurus.

Anisdrin won a major with https://fumbbl.com/p/team?team_id=778865. They took guard relatively early on everyone and usually had MB as well. Also had a ball carrying Saurus (7Ma 2AG Block sure hands BT) who is now dead but was a key to its success.

Jos75 won a major with https://fumbbl.com/p/team?op=view&team_id=848525. This team has only 1 guard on a saurus. (Insane skinks though)

Nielsh won a major with https://fumbbl.com/p/team?op=view&team_id=783896. He took MB early on almost every Saurus and added guard to 3 of them.

Finnally I won with this team https://fumbbl.com/p/team?team_id=767998. The current version is a bit unrepeatable unless Nuffle decides to give you all the ST boosts but the team that entered the major I won is very much easy to build. At the start of that tourney my Sauri were as follows.

1 Block
1 Block Tackle Bt MB piling on (cant take piling on anymore so would likely replace with guard)
1 5ST Block Guard SF (this was the only Saurus who had a stat or double
1 Block Guard Tackle Bt MB
1 Block Frenzy MB
1 Block Guard SF BT


Basically you can be very successful with Max Guard or Max MB or Max both or some of each without maxing either out. A lot depends on personal play style at that point.
Sp00keh



Joined: Dec 06, 2011

Post   Posted: Sep 20, 2017 - 19:22 Reply with quote Back to top

If you get doubles, take Dodge then break tackle
If you have Frenzy, take break tackle next

So that will tend to disrupt my simplistic approach/scheme above,.. which I guess would only apply if you got no doubles or stats

Saurus benefit a lot from a lot of normal skills though anyway
PainState



Joined: Apr 04, 2007

Post   Posted: Sep 20, 2017 - 22:06 Reply with quote Back to top

The skills that effect blocking are the best skills in the game.

Guard effects blocking because it forces the other team to commit more players to a block.

Block is the best skill in the game because it directly effects the dice roll out come. 2DB against you and you have no block is a 75% chance of success. Your player has block and it reduces it to around 48%. That is a huge effect on the game.

Couple block with guard and now it is harder to get 2DB on your players.

Mighty Blow is the third most important skill in the game because is is the only skill that effects the AV check and/or Injury check. If your players do not have mighty blow you only have a 1/6 chance to get a injury on the AV break roll. If you have MB and break AV out right you have a 10/36 chance. Once again a huge gain in the odds.

That is why "bash" teams have a early advantage in the game. All they need is Block/MB/Guard, skills that bash teams have normal access to.

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