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PurpleChest



Joined: Oct 25, 2003

Post   Posted: Oct 09, 2017 - 22:28 Reply with quote Back to top

licker wrote:
PurpleChest wrote:

Gobbo: Not bad as 13th, especially with Troll. But surprisingly useful even without.


Can you elaborate on this?


Why yes sir, I can.

Goblins have stunty meaning in teams before tackle is everywhere they 'can' run through lines, making a late turn play to utterly change the field.

MA6 isnt shabby, can keep up with your blitzers.

AG3 means possible BC if thrower is down and that stunty dodge through to score might make the drive. Espicailly if you are short on blitzers or need them for other uses.

40K isnt a bad price. cheaper than a lineorc.

'Percieved threat and decoy use'. having a stunty on the field 'can' alter how the opponent plans with the ball, giving them maybe a little slann-like fear of a player that 'can' dodge into anywhere. When the gobbos team has the ball the gobbo is wierdly still often no.1 target, as people chase spp and onfield numbers advantage. As such he can create holes and drag key hitters out of position.

Now don't get me wrong. 40K is still fair. Gobbos are crap. But they arnt utterly without merit. Try coaching some goblins and you will soon realise, while they fail ALL the time, they can also sometimes do wonders.

_________________
Barbarus hic ego sum quia non intelligor ulli
I am a barbarian here because i am not understood by anyone
garyt1



Joined: Mar 12, 2011

Post   Posted: Oct 09, 2017 - 23:35 Reply with quote Back to top

JackassRampant wrote:
Goblins are for one thing.

Game 1: 4 BOBs, 4 Blitzers, 3 Goblins, 4 RR.
Game 2: fire the 3 Goblins, run loners.

I think that would be breaking site rules surely. Firing multiple healthy players that are cheaper than linos 1 game after buying them, and not even with the excuse of not getting the skill you want.

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A wise man can learn more from a foolish question than a fool can learn from a wise answer.
Grod



Joined: Sep 30, 2003

Post   Posted: Oct 09, 2017 - 23:58 Reply with quote Back to top

Nothing wrong with +MA bobs. They might get built differently than a traditional Guard/Block/MB/SF one -> e.g. +MA/Block/Break Tackle/Tackle and dodge on a double. Certainly I wouldn't fire them now that you have them.

Personally, my ideal orc team has 3-4 rerolls, 1 troll, 4 bobs, 4 blitzers, 2 lineorcs and 1 goblin. I don't like throwers, but some players do.

Any excess cash at that point you can save to replace injuries.

Goblins by the way are great in certain situations, particularly if you are trying to score quickly. They are fast, have dodge and stunty so they can walk past screens (or be tossed of course).

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I am so clever that sometimes I don't understand a single word of what I am saying.

Oscar Wilde
licker



Joined: Jul 10, 2009

Post   Posted: Oct 10, 2017 - 01:57 Reply with quote Back to top

PurpleChest wrote:
licker wrote:
PurpleChest wrote:

Gobbo: Not bad as 13th, especially with Troll. But surprisingly useful even without.


Can you elaborate on this?


Why yes sir, I can.

Goblins have stunty meaning in teams before tackle is everywhere they 'can' run through lines, making a late turn play to utterly change the field.

MA6 isnt shabby, can keep up with your blitzers.

AG3 means possible BC if thrower is down and that stunty dodge through to score might make the drive. Espicailly if you are short on blitzers or need them for other uses.

40K isnt a bad price. cheaper than a lineorc.

'Percieved threat and decoy use'. having a stunty on the field 'can' alter how the opponent plans with the ball, giving them maybe a little slann-like fear of a player that 'can' dodge into anywhere. When the gobbos team has the ball the gobbo is wierdly still often no.1 target, as people chase spp and onfield numbers advantage. As such he can create holes and drag key hitters out of position.

Now don't get me wrong. 40K is still fair. Gobbos are crap. But they arnt utterly without merit. Try coaching some goblins and you will soon realise, while they fail ALL the time, they can also sometimes do wonders.


We'll have to agree to disagree I guess. I just don't see these benefits as outweighing the disadvantages they bring. I suppose if you get lucky with their skill ups you might have something at some point, but other wise, most of their uses, require them to either roll a ton of dice, or wind up in a position where they can get smacked.

Having them 'run through the other team to score' always sounds nice I guess, but in practice does it actually happen that often? I mean not even skinks really do that very frequently and they are 'better' at it than gobbos because you don't need to advance them so far.

We get into the 'better to have the option than not' debate at some point, but I find that to simply be a matter of preference. My counter is always that if you have a different build you can leverage that build into not needing to have that option available in the first place. But that's not really something easy to prove, and, certainly, there is some room for different coaches being better with different tactics.
Arktoris



Joined: Feb 16, 2004

Post   Posted: Oct 10, 2017 - 02:52 Reply with quote Back to top

goblins are cool for fouling and TTM, but they tend to last only a few turns on the board. Too tempting to squish.

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Hail to Berserker Eric! The latest charioteer to DIE for bloodbowl! - Slain, by Zufbar Hammerers!
licker



Joined: Jul 10, 2009

Post   Posted: Oct 10, 2017 - 03:10 Reply with quote Back to top

Arktoris wrote:
goblins are cool for fouling and TTM, but they tend to last only a few turns on the board. Too tempting to squish.


Why are they cool for fouling?

They need a double for dirty player, and meh, sneaky git? Nope.
Kondor



Joined: Apr 04, 2008

Post   Posted: Oct 10, 2017 - 06:03 Reply with quote Back to top

licker wrote:
Arktoris wrote:
goblins are cool for fouling and TTM, but they tend to last only a few turns on the board. Too tempting to squish.


Why are they cool for fouling?

They need a double for dirty player, and meh, sneaky git? Nope.


Perhaps if you are playing against teams with an 11 or 12 man roster. BOBs and Blitzers built to inflict damage and no skill gobs to foul. Use them like the stunties they are and try to get a major numbers advantage in the second half.

In other words a mobile 40k fouler vs an orc lineman at 50k or 70 with DP.
Arktoris



Joined: Feb 16, 2004

Post   Posted: Oct 10, 2017 - 07:06 Reply with quote Back to top

licker wrote:
Arktoris wrote:
goblins are cool for fouling and TTM, but they tend to last only a few turns on the board. Too tempting to squish.


Why are they cool for fouling?

They need a double for dirty player, and meh, sneaky git? Nope.


good movement and mobility to get where he needs to boot. Yes, dp requires a double but sneaky is easy access. Add to it, the low player cost. Plus, it's just what goblins do.

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Hail to Berserker Eric! The latest charioteer to DIE for bloodbowl! - Slain, by Zufbar Hammerers!
licker



Joined: Jul 10, 2009

Post   Posted: Oct 10, 2017 - 07:54 Reply with quote Back to top

You seriously take sneaky git?

Orc linemen are perfectly fine for fouling with, no need to over think it.

Besides you really do want dirty player on your foulers, it massively swings the odds of getting the opponent off the pitch.
Kondor



Joined: Apr 04, 2008

Post   Posted: Oct 10, 2017 - 10:55 Reply with quote Back to top

licker wrote:
You seriously take sneaky git?

Orc linemen are perfectly fine for fouling with, no need to over think it.

Besides you really do want dirty player on your foulers, it massively swings the odds of getting the opponent off the pitch.


Of course I want DP on my fouler. However, that orc DP is more easily tied up than the gobo. I see the gobo as either a mobile assist for a MB block or as a no skill fouler and I just shrug when he gets sent off.
Arktoris



Joined: Feb 16, 2004

Post   Posted: Oct 10, 2017 - 15:19 Reply with quote Back to top

mark a lineman and it's difficult for them to move and foul. Goblin has the extra movement, dodge, stunty, and access to sure feet to get where you need.

Yes, sneaky git may not be as potent as dp, but it comes in handy quite a lot. It boosts your confidence to foul when the odds of breaking av are low which increases your chance of knocking an opponent off the board. Without it, you would probably not even risk the foul = 0% of taking them out.

It also psychologically affects your opponent too. They know being on the ground is not safe while your goblin is spam fouling. They stand up and the orcs now can feed.

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Hail to Berserker Eric! The latest charioteer to DIE for bloodbowl! - Slain, by Zufbar Hammerers!
Sp00keh



Joined: Dec 06, 2011

Post   Posted: Oct 10, 2017 - 15:56 Reply with quote Back to top

If you want a 14 man team and already have thrower, troll, 4 blitzers, 4 BOBs, 3 lineorcs - is a goblin better than a 4th lineorc?
He's a worse player but the potential versatility maybe makes up for it
If your 14th guy stays on the bench most games, gobo is cheaper bum to fill the seat
Occasionally you might as well try for TTM...

(I wouldn't keep a skilled gobo regardless of what he rolled, TV efficiency habit still not dead)

On a 12 man team, is it better to have 2 lineorcs over one orc and one goblin?
licker



Joined: Jul 10, 2009

Post   Posted: Oct 10, 2017 - 16:17 Reply with quote Back to top

Sometimes I just have to shake my head and wonder.

This is one of those times.
MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Oct 10, 2017 - 16:48 Reply with quote Back to top

Goblins on an Orc team have 2 purposes in my opinion:
1) being thrown to score in one turn;
2) perform the ball carrier duty in some situations, the classic example is running past several tackle zones to score, if you cycle them after the first skill up you could have a MA 7 or AG 4 Goblin.

They can of course foul, but to maximize the chance of removing the victim you want to have a Dirty Player, therefore Orc linemen are indeed better.
Goblins need a double to take Dirty Player, at that point they cost 70k as an Orc Lineman with Dirty Player but have a worse statline and are squishy.

About Sneaky Git, as bghandras wrote: "Do not ever take Sneaky Git".
He made the calculations and his conclusion is that the skill is not worth it.

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licker



Joined: Jul 10, 2009

Post   Posted: Oct 10, 2017 - 18:07 Reply with quote Back to top

One of the problems with scoring with a goblin is that you're not scoring with a blitzer or a black orc.

I'm not sure if it's worse to actually score with a goblin than a thrower though.
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