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Poll
+MA or +AV
+MA
91%
 91%  [ 55 ]
+AV
1%
 1%  [ 1 ]
skill
6%
 6%  [ 4 ]
Total Votes : 60


spubbbba



Joined: Jul 31, 2006

Post   Posted: Nov 06, 2017 - 20:20 Reply with quote Back to top

As others have said, take +MA for sure. Since he already has block that player is a real beast.

You can always get guard next skill assuming it is a normal one.

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MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Nov 06, 2017 - 20:28 Reply with quote Back to top

Arktoris wrote:

undead tend to have surplus cash. Why not buy both?

First off, the card/babe can be bought after you found the match without affecting your TV, while the assistant coach and cheerleader constantly increase the TV by 20 BEFORE finding the match and this could mean finding a higher TV team (i.e. a worse match-up), for a not sure benefit (getting extra rr/denying it assuming the event is rolled and you win the roll, and this assuming that extra rr was really needed).
Secondly, in some cases you could get one extra card if you don't have any assistant coaches/cheerleaders.

Let's say I have TV 1350 Undead (no assistant coach/no cheerleader) and 50k in Treasury, I look for a game and my team gets matched vs TV 1400 team. I can have 1 card/babe for free due to the TV difference (50k extra gold), and if I want to use cash I can buy one extra card or babe.
Let's say that I have TV 1370 Undead (same team but with 1 assistant coach and 1 cheerleader), 50k in Treasury. I find the same TV 1400 team.
In this case I can get only 1 card or 1 babe by using my own cash, because the slight TV increase prevented to get the extra card/babe (extra gold being only 30k in this case).

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Last edited by MattDakka on Nov 06, 2017 - 20:42; edited 1 time in total
Arktoris



Joined: Feb 16, 2004

Post   Posted: Nov 06, 2017 - 20:41 Reply with quote Back to top

so they're the same yes? On one hand, you get a card and greater chance for reroll (and greater chance to choke rr access to your opponent). Both might be useless or key to winning the game.

In the other situation, you get two cards, which again, might be useless or key to winning the game.

Now try it again with 1330Tv opponent. Still same?

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MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Nov 06, 2017 - 20:51 Reply with quote Back to top

Undead don't need more than 3 rrs in most of their games, and denying a rr or winning it situationally it's still not worth the constant TV increase each and every game, exceptions are league/scheduled games where you know exactly the TV of your next opponent, so if your opponent team is 20 TV higher and you have just 20k in Treasury then it might be better to buy 1 assistant coach and 1 cheerleader for that particular match (or just save that 20k if you need to replace players). I did that in a private League with my Khemri team, but I dumped the assistant coach and cheerleader afterwards.
With 1330 opponent it doesn't make a difference, but the point is that you are more likely to find a TV 1330 opponent if your team is 1350 rather than 1370, assuming same number of games played.
If your team is 1370 with 1 assistant coach and 1 cheerleader and my team is 1350 exactly like yours but without them chances are that I will play vs the 1330 team while you are going to play vs the 1400 team.
My match up will be better than yours.

Vampires might benefit from 1 assistant coach and 1 cheerleader perhaps, because they really benefit from any extra rr, but not Undead.
I don't use assistant coach and cheerleader on my Vampire team because I prefer to keep the TV a bit lower to increase the chance of getting inducements like a babe or other stuff.

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Last edited by MattDakka on Nov 06, 2017 - 21:16; edited 2 times in total
Arktoris



Joined: Feb 16, 2004

Post   Posted: Nov 06, 2017 - 20:58 Reply with quote Back to top

MattDakka wrote:
Undead don't need more than 3 rrs in most of their games


You sure? They only start with two players with block, no one with sure hands or 4agility, and need to make lots of gfi.

bottomline: It's all situational so why over think it. Your next opponent could just as easily be a 2300tv orc team with enough money to hire a chef against you. Still don't want that cheerleader and coach? 3rr still good enough?

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Hail to Berserker Eric! The latest charioteer to DIE for bloodbowl! - Slain, by Zufbar Hammerers!
MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Nov 06, 2017 - 21:07 Reply with quote Back to top

Yes, I'm sure, 2 players with Block give a bit of reliability and Mummies can 3d block from time to time.
Lots of GFIs? with 2-3 MA 7 Ghouls you are generally fine, with average dice.
Once you get a Ghoul with Sure Hands you can play with 2 rrs, if you really want, but this is a bit risky if bad dice happen.

If my opponent is 2300 TV orc I doubt that 1 a.coach and 1 cheerleader will matter, but, if my opponent hired a chef by spending 300k fine for me, I can buy 1 or 2 extra rrs with the inducements and other stuff.
Elves, Skaven, Slann, Vampires are way harder to play with a chef against, if you want to make a good example, because they rely a lot on 1d actions and Vampires roll lot of dice anyway.
Undead rely mostly on 2d actions, i.e. their blocks, therefore they are fine with 3 rrs and 2 Block players.
They can be played with 2 rrs with average dice and a Sure Hands Ghoul, I did that in the past, but 3 rrs give you more back up in case of early double skulls and other bad dice.

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Arktoris



Joined: Feb 16, 2004

Post   Posted: Nov 06, 2017 - 21:19 Reply with quote Back to top

yeah, but if you had 4 rerolls and staff, you wouldn't need to waste 200k trying to counter the chef. Leaving more cash for sweet star players, dirty tricks, and bribes to dent his super team.

Now that spiraling expenses are gone, and big teams get inducements too without any compensation for the junior team, is there really a reason to hold back anymore?

Is 20TV too much to gain a rr and choke your opponent of a reroll?

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MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Nov 06, 2017 - 21:36 Reply with quote Back to top

By the way, spending 300k to get a chef is not the best way of spending money on inducements, generally speaking.
Assuming I play vs sameish TV opponent, the 4rd rr is not necessary, and if I'm playing vs super high opponent, having 4 rrs won't probably make a difference either.
Choking a 2300 Orc team of a rr (and again, is not a guaranteed thing, it's just a possible, but not sure thing) won't make a difference.
Chances are that the 2300 Orc team will have at least 3 rrs and vs my very low TV team they will not struggle anyway.
What if Cheering Fans/Brilliant Coaching is never rolled because your opponent stalls a lot?
What if you win the rr and your team still sucks because your opponent team is clearly superior?
What if the event is rolled and you don't win it even with the staff, when you could have used the 20 TV difference to get a babe or card or other inducement?
20 TV per se is not too much, bloating the TV EVERY game for a POTENTIAL benefit that is going to have a MARGINAL impact of the game most of times is too much in the long run of the team career, if you care about winning.

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Last edited by MattDakka on Nov 07, 2017 - 14:56; edited 1 time in total
Arktoris



Joined: Feb 16, 2004

Post   Posted: Nov 06, 2017 - 23:19 Reply with quote Back to top

If my opponent only had 3 rerolls and no staff, I'd definitely consider the chef.

People play different when they have 0 rerolls left. As long as you have 1, you take those risks and extra dodges/gfi/blocks. when you have none, coaches get shy.

But as you've pointed out, there are too many variables to predict any meaningful gain from inducements via holding back team development.

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garyt1



Joined: Mar 12, 2011

Post   Posted: Nov 07, 2017 - 12:12 Reply with quote Back to top

No point with arguing with Matt about it. Every tv point has to be dissected in detail to what gives the easier matchup in his book. He doesn’t like something that won’t be of use in almost every match. The reality is that a rr gained, or one removed from an opponent will win or save some games. More often it won’t but it is a minor tv change. The same mentality is used by people who can’t add a 2nd skill to a lino despite the extra options it gives and simply a more interesting team.

Only 2 rerolls total is a risk for any team.

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MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Nov 07, 2017 - 13:55 Reply with quote Back to top

garyt1 wrote:
No point with arguing with Matt about it.

I could say the same.
Looks like my win rate with Undead (69%) is higher than yours (42%).
Apparently your beloved coaching staff didn't help you a lot to win games.
About skilled linos: you know, TV 20 is not a lot, but less TV 20 due to no assistant coach/babe, less TV 40 by firing a zombie with 2 skills, and suddenly your team has just lost 60 TV, that means a babe or a card and easier match up.
TV management is important if you want to be successful with a race.
Also, cheap players with a poor statline/skill access are not worth to be skilled too much.
You have to skill the positionals, not the fodder players, and consider that Undead lose performance as their TV increases.
Fodder players like Zombies are fine with 0-1 skill, more skills than that have a diminishing return.

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Stevar



Joined: Oct 31, 2017

Post   Posted: Nov 07, 2017 - 14:39 Reply with quote Back to top

I agree with most of the argument about managing TV.
I'll keep my scapegoat, I mean assistant and my masseuse oops I mean cheerleader for the reasons stated.

At a higher TV, you want a skill on the meat (zombies) either block or wrestle, you want it... well I do. And a recruiter (DP).

What about 4th RRs ?
is the 70 tv wasted in your opinion?
MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Nov 07, 2017 - 14:48 Reply with quote Back to top

Stevar wrote:

What about 4th RRs ?
is the 70 tv wasted in your opinion?

Not totally wasted but I think that Undead are fine with 3 rrs most of times, so I'd say the 4th rr has a diminishing return and tends to bloat the TV rather than improving the chances to win.
I'm referring to blind matchmaking environment, private leagues with scheduled games/majors may have exceptions.
If I really want the 4th rr I can take it with Leader when I roll a double, saving 40 TV that way.

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garyt1



Joined: Mar 12, 2011

Post   Posted: Nov 09, 2017 - 05:58 Reply with quote Back to top

MattDakka wrote:
garyt1 wrote:
No point with arguing with Matt about it.

I could say the same.
Looks like my win rate with Undead (69%) is higher than yours (42%).
Apparently your beloved coaching staff didn't help you a lot to win games..

Yes certainly not great, though you can’t put those numbers down to this minor discussion. The team does include my early games on the site though when I won my first undead match and then not another for 23 games. My team includes star and superstar zombies so the cheerleader and coach are small fry in comparison. The point was you emphasize very strongly about every little tv point. But Directing newer players to focus on this aspect and cr a bit too heavily in every skill post. Emphasized when you write that lower tv gives you easier games. I know you don’t like big tv gaps but easy games shouldn’t be the focus. Maybe on average these tv extras don’t help but in some games they will. No point in getting agitated about it.

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thoralf



Joined: Mar 06, 2008

Post   Posted: Nov 09, 2017 - 06:30 Reply with quote Back to top

Stevar wrote:
As for an assistant coach, I like to have one so I can blame him is for any losses and cheerleader so she can... well console me or cheer me up


\o/

This won't get into the Book of Dakka, but I like it.

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