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mrt1212



Joined: Feb 26, 2013

Post   Posted: Nov 17, 2017 - 01:41 Reply with quote Back to top

licker wrote:
mrt1212 wrote:
That's how you think it works? That nothing happens on that 2 turn offensive drive that might impact or change how your defense works? Or that you have some OTTD mechanism that allows a more aggressive tack by kicking first since you're guaranteed to get the OTTD attempt in doing so? Must be nice to whoop on people in BB2 I guess.


Who the hell is talking about a OTTD?

Not me.

And part of the premise of the 'kick first' is that elfs can score 'easily' down players in the 2nd half too. So really, are you struggling that much to score with elfs when you have a full 11?

You can also stall more effectively with a full 11, which is why I don't say to blinding score ASAP (though it's not really a problem if you do), but rather play your offense to be able to score and then stall as much as is 'safe'.

You still are unable to answer the actual question though. I mean I know you can't, no one can, because there is no answer to why kicking first is superior.


I answered the question just fine for anyone who isn't you - in fact I had several people agree with my rationale, one said it was almost exact. The fact that I specifically mentioned OTTDs in my rationale the FIRST GO AROUND and that you ignored it says everything about you and how you approach a conversation.

Secondly, you are asking a loaded question - Would I prefer to play up 1-0 over 0-0? Sure. You will invoke that as an "AHA, GOTCHYA" but it's not really because there is a qualified answer and nuance which you will handwave away as irrelevant or weaseling but I assure you it's not.

I would prefer to be up 1-0 receiving the ball in the 2nd half. I don't feel that doing a 2 turn score and 6 turn defense and kicking off in the 2nd half makes that objective any more achievable. If that isn't achievable I would prefer to be tied 1-1 receiving in the 2nd half.

So you're probably going to ask why I prefer to receive in the 2nd half, and its because if I did my job in the first, and the dice cooperate, I have the game entirely in my hands in the 2nd and there is probably not much the other coach can do to stop me. If I score on offense in the first half and give two chances for reprisal the game is not nearly as open and shut.

You're more confident in giving your opponent two chances to score over 14 turns with a 1-0 lead than you are giving your opponent one chance to score all game when they might need more than that depending on your defense and OTTD shot? Okay, fine, that's why I said there's no 'right' answer per se. BUT YOU DIDNT READ THAT, YOU DICK!

But that's not all, because I purposefully build around the concept of kicking first, I strive to have a OTTD option at all times because it allows me at worst to have a 50% shot at 1-1 tied going into the 2nd half receiving. But that's not relevant is it? Because your argument isn't at all predicated on anything other than that back of envelope game theory tripe you think overrides any and every other consideration and possibility, a few of which I mentioned in my opening statement - the one you ignored.

Also, the 11 player thing is bordering on a strawman here - You can in fact build teams that make the likelihood of starting either drive with less than 11 lower and also make business decisions in game to prevent that from happening. The key element though is having the best 11 players for defense present on defense when you give it a go. With offense for elves, I feel like you only really start missing players on offense when you get to 8 or lower.

The point is though that yes, often times if I receive first I am overwhelmed by what to exactly do even with 11 players on turn 1. Just because YOU personally don't suffer from this doesn't mean it doesnt exist and doesn't influence your answer to the question and doesnt have knock on effects vis a vis in game tactics and risk appetite. I know that you have a hard time empathizing with people so this might be a leap too far but wouldn't you at the very least agree that people probably shouldnt do what they're not comfortable with first and foremost in a game?

Another thing that you gloss over is that playing defense up 1-0 for an expected 14 turns in a row IS qualitatively different than playing tied 0-0 for 8 turns and then tied 0-0 for 2 turns of offense and then up 1-0 on defense for 6 turns again. You might not think its different and you may not approach it that way and this might be why you engender success to yourself but when someone like morehouse says "actually" you go to "you leverage the fact your opponents are bad"? Look, you play BB2 and use that as your sole source on receiving always wins because that's when you switched it up. I don't know if you did this just to be funny and cute but cmon...don't throw stones about "inferior opponents" when you leverage your entire experiential argument on playing "inferior opponents" That's why I threw the intellectually dishonest thing at you and why it rings true. You really can not see this outside of what you have arrived at the appalling thing is, you are clearly smart enough to entertain the possibility of nuance and exceptions and to gain information from the experiences of other people, you just seemingly can't in this instance.
morehouse



Joined: Sep 29, 2005

Post   Posted: Nov 17, 2017 - 01:52 Reply with quote Back to top

Lol my goodness who the hell is this guy? Didn’t he start the conversation saying he plays BB2? Show a little more respect for people playing in the major leagues maybe?
licker



Joined: Jul 10, 2009

Post   Posted: Nov 17, 2017 - 01:52 Reply with quote Back to top

It actually doesn't matter what the skill level of the players you are facing is.

What matters is that you can see a difference in your win rates kicking or receiving regardless of their actual ability. And that's what I have seen. When I kick first I have more draws and loses than when I receive first.

I'm not comparing fumbbl stats to BB2 stats in any case, but I can tell you the difference is simply not as vast as you assume it to be. Especially in private leagues.

I also figured you were high on the OTTD play, but frankly that's simply not that common, and not that likely to succeed for many coaches anyway, so don't accuse me of assuming any particular play style or ability when you're the one making that assumption. Beyond which at mid to high TVs there are alot of ways to simply stymie any one turn attempt which isn't natural, be it with side step or stand firm, or even with disturbing presence.

Still there's not even a need to predicate the discussion based off of a series of what if scenarios.

The fundamental logic is simple. If you are ahead you are more likely to win (or draw) then if you are not ahead.

You may be scared of defending for 14 turns, but you also seem to feel that you have a good chance at defending for those first 8 turns and steal the ball. That doesn't really make much sense though, still, because being up 1-0 and defending for 7 turns is fundamentally the same as defending for those 8 turns, but, you have already scored.

Imagine then that your defense is great or your opponent is bad. Now you're up 2-0, and defending for X turns. Do you think your opponent can really score 3 times on you?

I don't.
licker



Joined: Jul 10, 2009

Post   Posted: Nov 17, 2017 - 01:53 Reply with quote Back to top

morehouse wrote:
Lol my goodness who the hell is this guy? Didn’t he start the conversation saying he plays BB2? Show a little more respect for people playing in the major leagues maybe?


The usual retort of someone who has nothing real to say.

But sure, I guess my fumbbl profile is hidden or something? Yeah I didn't play any games here ever.
mrt1212



Joined: Feb 26, 2013

Post   Posted: Nov 17, 2017 - 02:02 Reply with quote Back to top

licker wrote:
morehouse wrote:
Lol my goodness who the hell is this guy? Didn’t he start the conversation saying he plays BB2? Show a little more respect for people playing in the major leagues maybe?


The usual retort of someone who has nothing real to say.

But sure, I guess my fumbbl profile is hidden or something? Yeah I didn't play any games here ever.


You specifically invoked a causal chain involving BB2 and receiving first! YOU! You are borderline Trump levels of cognitive dissonance here.
licker



Joined: Jul 10, 2009

Post   Posted: Nov 17, 2017 - 02:30 Reply with quote Back to top

As I explained, it doesn't matter where your data is coming from so long as it is measured consistently.

I'm not comparing fumbbl results to BB2, I'm telling you that my BB2 results show a meaningful difference between kicking and receiving.

I could go back and look at my fumbbl results as well, but I really haven't played elfs that much in years anyway, and I certainly wasn't trying to employ this specific strategy.

Because I heard someone say that elfs should kick first, and like a chump, I just believed them rather than actually looking at results and thinking through the argument logically.

But by all means, crap all over BB2 if it makes you think you're somehow superior. I've played enough at both places to know that the difference is marginal. With one exception. Playing in COL is a pointless waste of time, statistics from that are as useless as statistics from R.
morehouse



Joined: Sep 29, 2005

Post   Posted: Nov 17, 2017 - 02:33 Reply with quote Back to top

You are talking down to someone who plays this game at a higher level than you do. To run off to a place where you are playing lesser competition and then lob shots at people who are better than you on the forums is a coward move.
Craftnburn



Joined: Jul 29, 2005

Post   Posted: Nov 17, 2017 - 02:50 Reply with quote Back to top

Now I remember why I don't post much anymore.. people can't argue without it becoming an argument...

Morehouse, your assumption that mrt1212 "plays this game at a higher level" has no basis in fact, it's merely an elitist opinion (perhaps it's even a correct one, but it's still not fact).

I've played a lot of BB (No BB2 btw), and I agree with Licker, I find I have much better results receiving 1st. Score quickly, then fight for a defensive score. At best you're up 2-0 at worst, tied 1-1. Sure sometimes I lose to the usual 2-1 basher grindout, but I (as Licker does) prefer my chances defending with the lead.
mrt1212



Joined: Feb 26, 2013

Post   Posted: Nov 17, 2017 - 02:55 Reply with quote Back to top

licker, the only way 'always receive' is a proper application for coaching is trying to get someone to learn how to play offense until they might actually prefer it. So you got us there.
mrt1212



Joined: Feb 26, 2013

Post   Posted: Nov 17, 2017 - 03:09 Reply with quote Back to top

Craftnburn wrote:
Now I remember why I don't post much anymore.. people can't argue without it becoming an argument...

Morehouse, your assumption that mrt1212 "plays this game at a higher level" has no basis in fact, it's merely an elitist opinion (perhaps it's even a correct one, but it's still not fact).

I've played a lot of BB (No BB2 btw), and I agree with Licker, I find I have much better results receiving 1st. Score quickly, then fight for a defensive score. At best you're up 2-0 at worst, tied 1-1. Sure sometimes I lose to the usual 2-1 basher grindout, but I (as Licker does) prefer my chances defending with the lead.


morehouse was referring to himself Wink I know where I'm at unfortunately...

and craftburn, that's fine - you should do what works for you obviously. The thing that is eating me alive like a sentient tumor here is the dogmatic approach licker goes with on the subject. I knew it would happen as soon as i saw the thread and i knew i was going to get eaten alive and here i still am.

If I could boil it down I'd say that the preference for giving the opponent one shot per game to score is what works for me and many others, quite well in fact. Why doesn't the opposite approach work for us as elves? Now there's an interesting question but one that will never get answered when licker is coming at this from a completely dogmatic and uncompromising position that he can't step back from for one moment because he is so beholden to advancing his ego intoxicating 'logical argument' about being up 1 score is always a situational advantage anything else is wrong wrong wrong.

The certitude with which he opines just drives me bananas because it obscures what could actually be interesting.
mrt1212



Joined: Feb 26, 2013

Post   Posted: Nov 17, 2017 - 03:20 Reply with quote Back to top

And honestly, I do credit licker with being right in a sense that someone who is newer and inexperienced should always receive, but as i suggest, to learn to play offense instead of avoiding it like the plague, not as 'the right way'. You don't get better at stuff you don't practice and that was a mistake I made. Also, licker has stated that at a high enough coaching level it probably doesn't matter that much which is also likely true - which makes the refusal to take a step back even more baffling to me.

But I can't ignore multiple people doing the opposite and succeeding at it and I would love to talk about the why of it so perhaps coaches seeking to learn can see what camp they fall into and why especially because it isn't the orthodox method. In fact the most fascinating thing I could imagine is licker himself going through several theories as to why some stuff works for some and not others.
Catalyst32



Joined: Jul 14, 2008

Post   Posted: Nov 17, 2017 - 03:46 Reply with quote Back to top

morehouse wrote:
You are talking down to someone who plays this game at a higher level than you do. To run off to a place where you are playing lesser competition and then lob shots at people who are better than you on the forums is a coward move.


Not based on their CRs according to FUMBBL. Rolling Eyes
Licker has played several games on FUMBBL and while he was here he was hampered by what he now considers BAD ADVICE when he was using Elves (the easiest races to win games with for most coaches). IN his opinion, and in the opinions of people who prefer HIS choice in Kicking Strategy, his CR would be even higher had he not been following that bad advice.

In the meantime I propose a CHALLENGE. Twisted Evil
You and Licker and MrT and anyone else in the Americas who wants to accept the challenge... should join NWL with an Agility Team. Play the game your way and PROVE IT on the Pitch.
Plus we could use a new rivalry in the league.
NWL needs some new players and we especially need some Agility teams. (But seriously we will accept anybody that wants to play and can reliably play during American Evening Hours whether you want to be part of the CHALLENGE or not. I just figured a CHALLENGE would be fun and get some people to join.)

Hell... I might even accept the CHALLENGE myself if only 1 person is willing to pick up the Gauntlet. Even though I am really NEUTRAL in the opinion of who kicks or receives. I'll play whatever is your opposite if nobody else accepts the CHALLENGE.

In NWL we allow you to use the SIMYIN Roster too. And the Right Stuff cancels Tackle rule. Otherwise our rules are standard (if I am not mistaken). We intend to start our next season soon after the New Year. It will be our 34th Season.


Last edited by Catalyst32 on Nov 17, 2017 - 03:49; edited 1 time in total
mrt1212



Joined: Feb 26, 2013

Post   Posted: Nov 17, 2017 - 03:48 Reply with quote Back to top

Horning in on my business Catalyst!
Craftnburn



Joined: Jul 29, 2005

Post   Posted: Nov 17, 2017 - 03:51 Reply with quote Back to top

Unfortunately mrt1212, in this case.. I think you're responsible. You came in expecting an argument and you found it...because you provoked it. Sad

i.e.:

mrt1212 wrote:
licker wrote:
YES.

Kicking is for chumps.


Chumps who might in fact be good at the game. But we won't explore a world that isn't oriented solely around licker's beliefs.
mrt1212



Joined: Feb 26, 2013

Post   Posted: Nov 17, 2017 - 03:52 Reply with quote Back to top

Fair!
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