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Catalyst32



Joined: Jul 14, 2008

Post   Posted: Nov 17, 2017 - 03:56 Reply with quote Back to top

mrt1212 wrote:
Horning in on my business Catalyst!


Haha... Which League are you running?

But seriously... we have had lots of crossover coaches from your leagues to mine. I've probably been in one of your leagues before.
These days I am too busy to be in more than 1 League and since I am 1 of the main Admins over at NWL I figure it is best that I play in that one only for now.

Anyways... we offer something DIFFERENT from the other Leagues. But our old model got kinda stale. So we are open to suggestions and changes. But we don't intend to be a 2nd league that is styled after the NFL or College Themed. But a coach CAN name their team any theme they want... so they can be a version of any NFL or College team in the NWL.
The way we are trying to offer a different experience is via a different structure. Which we WERE achieving by having an EASTERN Division and a WESTERN Division... which seemed to bring in some Coaches for a while.

But anyway...
A CHALLENGE!!! PROVE IT!!! Blah blah-blah!!!
mrt1212



Joined: Feb 26, 2013

Post   Posted: Nov 17, 2017 - 04:03 Reply with quote Back to top

Catalyst32 wrote:
mrt1212 wrote:
Horning in on my business Catalyst!


Haha... Which League are you running?

But seriously... we have had lots of crossover coaches from your leagues to mine. I've probably been in one of your leagues before.
These days I am too busy to be in more than 1 League and since I am 1 of the main Admins over at NWL I figure it is best that I play in that one only for now.

Anyways... we offer something DIFFERENT from the other Leagues. But our old model got kinda stale. So we are open to suggestions and changes. But we don't intend to be a 2nd league that is styled after the NFL or College Themed. But a coach CAN name their team any theme they want... so they can be a version of any NFL or College team in the NWL.
The way we are trying to offer a different experience is via a different structure. Which we WERE achieving by having an EASTERN Division and a WESTERN Division... which seemed to bring in some Coaches for a while.

But anyway...
A CHALLENGE!!! PROVE IT!!! Blah blah-blah!!!


I'm running the NBFL now! We got Poods...maybe an exchange program can be arranged Wink
Bazakastine



Joined: Mar 21, 2014

Post   Posted: Nov 17, 2017 - 04:14 Reply with quote Back to top

Here is the thing. Both receiving first and kicking first can work with just about any team. It's all about the coach more than anything else. There isn't a silver bullet here.

Some people such as Licker have seen more success receiving first with Elves. Others have seen more success kicking with Elves. Neither answer is wrong and anyone who thinks their way is the only way is frankly mistaken. (Of course there is only one person here who I have seen claim that there is only one way to play.)


Personally I like to kick first with Elves... and Skaven... and Lizards... and Undead... and Orcs...etc.(there are exceptions usually when the potential for early damage is higher than normal one way or another) This has nothing to do with it being "easier" to defend with a full 11. It has nothing to do with potential oneturning. It is because I believe I am a better defensive coach than an offensive coach. Now you could say well just 2 turn score and play defense the rest of the game is you think you are better at that and I used to do so with Skaven but over time I decided that my win rate was noticeably better with me kicking first for a handful of reasons.

1. If I do cause an early turnover and defensive score the game is all but over. This is the big advantage to kicking. If you fail defensively you are down 1-0 receiving the ball which well thats not too bad of a situation. If you fail offensively you are down 1-0 at the half and kicking and now you are desperate.

2. I like knowing the score in the half I receive. It is incredibly valuable for me to know the score as it changes what is an acceptable offensive outcome. If I am tied trying to stall for 8 turns becomes preferred as it maximizes my chance to win. If I did manage to win my defensive half and am up by 1+ when receiving in the 2nd half then I know that I can score whenever is best for me. I don't have to stall because a 2-0 lead is very safe, I also don't have to score quickly unless it requires very safe actions. If I am down by 1 I can either try to stall out for a draw, attempt to score in around 5 turns, or attempt to score in 2-3 turns depending on what I think will maximize my chances. Finally if I am down by 2 (which means things went really poorly)I at least have the chance to score quickly and give myself a shot.

3. I get to see how my opponent plays off the bat. How he plays offensively gives me a ton of information to use later in the match and will help me know what I want to do if I am down 1-0 at the half.


Now I fully understand that this is what works for me. If you find that receiving first is better for you Great. There is more than one way to skin a cat.
thoralf



Joined: Mar 06, 2008

Post   Posted: Nov 17, 2017 - 05:48 Reply with quote Back to top

Guys,

Time for some game theory.

_________________
There is always Sneaky Git.
Craftnburn



Joined: Jul 29, 2005

Post   Posted: Nov 17, 2017 - 06:27 Reply with quote Back to top

thoralf wrote:
game theory.
Laughing Did you watch that replay?

Fluke endings like that are hardly what you can base an argument on... (no offense Baszakstine.)
Catalyst32



Joined: Jul 14, 2008

Post   Posted: Nov 17, 2017 - 06:27 Reply with quote Back to top

Bazakastine wrote:

There is more than one way to skin a cat.



HEY!!! That's offensive. I thought you said you did Defense 1st. How rude. Wink
Catalyst32



Joined: Jul 14, 2008

Post   Posted: Nov 17, 2017 - 06:31 Reply with quote Back to top

I like to Kick 1st and Kick often. Razz
mrt1212



Joined: Feb 26, 2013

Post   Posted: Nov 17, 2017 - 06:33 Reply with quote Back to top

Craftnburn wrote:
thoralf wrote:
game theory.
Laughing Did you watch that replay?

Fluke endings like that are hardly what you can base an argument on... (no offense Baszakstine.)


Thoralf should have posted this

Doesn't get the score 1st half dodging a bull to get the TD, then yields a turn 6 score in the 2nd half, and then once again fails dice roll to get td to tie. This is much closer to the nightmare I'd like to avoid.
licker



Joined: Jul 10, 2009

Post   Posted: Nov 17, 2017 - 06:35 Reply with quote Back to top

mrt1212 wrote:
Fair!


I've got no issues with mrt or how he addressed me. He's not even wrong when he invokes the OTTD players, but as I said, that's not a basis for a general strategy, that only works when you have one.

This is a pretty simple question though, there is a right answer too, it's not down to simple coach preference, though, as I noted also, at a certain level it really doesn't matter very much.

Still, not mattering much is not the same thing as not mattering at all. If you want to squeeze some additional advantage why wouldn't you do it?

All I can really tell you kickers is that your logic is simply flawed. You can say 'well it works for me' but so what? Unless you actually see what the difference is just saying that is pointless. And, since most coaches probably choose to receive in the bash match up at least, you probably don't even have a lot of data to see what your results are doing it the other way.

I know I didn't, until I did, and then I could see there was an actual difference, and I watched other top coaches and how they approached it, and saw the same thing.

Like I said, I don't really care if you believe me, I don't care if you like me, I don't care if you insult me. Maybe the guy who asked the question will learn something from this, maybe someone else who reads it will learn something, and so someone will get something useful out of this.

I've got nothing to prove anyway, but it's always funny to see people thinking that CR or some random one off game is a key to winning an argument.
licker



Joined: Jul 10, 2009

Post   Posted: Nov 17, 2017 - 06:39 Reply with quote Back to top

mrt1212 wrote:
Craftnburn wrote:
thoralf wrote:
game theory.
Laughing Did you watch that replay?

Fluke endings like that are hardly what you can base an argument on... (no offense Baszakstine.)


Thoralf should have posted this

Doesn't get the score 1st half dodging a bull to get the TD, then yields a turn 6 score in the 2nd half, and then once again fails dice roll to get td to tie. This is much closer to the nightmare I'd like to avoid.


So now high TV kill CD are an agility team?

How does that game even factor into this discussion?

But by all means, watch all my replays, or only watch the ones I lost. I'm not sure what any of that would prove. At least watch my NWFL DE team I guess.
mrt1212



Joined: Feb 26, 2013

Post   Posted: Nov 17, 2017 - 06:44 Reply with quote Back to top

Wink sometimes I'm taking the piss
licker



Joined: Jul 10, 2009

Post   Posted: Nov 17, 2017 - 06:45 Reply with quote Back to top

I don't even remember that game but it looks like I wasn't even trying to play the 2nd half in any meaningful way. Could be that the season was almost over and I just wanted to make sure no one important died.
mrt1212



Joined: Feb 26, 2013

Post   Posted: Nov 17, 2017 - 06:56 Reply with quote Back to top

Week 5 season 13...Christ that took a long time find.
licker



Joined: Jul 10, 2009

Post   Posted: Nov 17, 2017 - 07:06 Reply with quote Back to top

Hmm, well you got me then, no idea what I was trying to do. Was that the season my team fell apart completely and I went 2-12 or something?
thoralf



Joined: Mar 06, 2008

Post   Posted: Nov 17, 2017 - 07:10 Reply with quote Back to top

Craftnburn wrote:

Fluke endings like that are hardly what you can base an argument on...


As opposed to non-fluke endings, I suppose?

Right.

Wait. What argument are you talking about?

_________________
There is always Sneaky Git.
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