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Necross



Joined: Oct 22, 2014

Post 22 Posted: Jan 10, 2018 - 03:00 Reply with quote Back to top

I'll be playing in a local League soon with halflings cuz I've been having a pretty good year with them. The only issue is I now have been overwhelmed by the choices available.

I'm allowed 1100k to build my team and 150 for skills (no more then 40 per player.) Also stunty teams can take Lewdgrip Whiparm (with fan favorite) for free.

Here's the build I've been debating:

2 Trees
8 halflings
Deeproot
Puggy
Lewdgrip
A Chef
1 reroll
And 20 leftover for support staff.

I could trade Puggy and 2 halflings (or the reroll) for Karla or Puggy and a cheerleader for Willow. I am not sure what is best. The first build will ensure reroll denial on kick off events regardless of who gets fame; Karla Von Kill will make me bashier but make my roster shallow, which is not wise for a av 6 team;and Willow is a compromise between the two but loses Blodge.

Skills I'm thinking of is: bock for the trees, 2 catch, a dirty player, and a sprinter halflings. Putting block on a few halflings is tempting however passing opens up some tactical options especially considering I got Lewdgrip.

Thoughts?
Wozzaa



Joined: Apr 23, 2016

Post   Posted: Jan 10, 2018 - 03:42 Reply with quote Back to top

Block on a tree and BT Jugs on the other. No puggy, 3 more flings, don't take catch just have one DP. One sure feet fling.
Grod



Joined: Sep 30, 2003

Post   Posted: Jan 10, 2018 - 08:09 Reply with quote Back to top

Forget skills on flings (but take them on trees). You are better of having a 16 player roster and fouling like an evil imp every turn. One possibility is grab on a tree instead of block. This will help you set up awesome fouls, if you are that way inclined. Be interesting if you could squeeze Morg into the side as well...

_________________
I am so clever that sometimes I don't understand a single word of what I am saying.

Oscar Wilde
kwèk



Joined: Nov 13, 2005

Post   Posted: Jan 10, 2018 - 08:48 Reply with quote Back to top

Does anyone that gave advice so far (yes, you 2) actually have enough experience with the little guys to actually teach the person that asks the question anything good? ... or did you see a threat, and you just had to reply for some odd reason?

Why not give skills to flings? In the end, those are the guys that will get you out of trouble OR make the touchdowns. Trees are huge, but they are not the stars of the team. It's a "Halfling" team, not a "Treeman" team.

Just "fouling" every turn... is a pretty strange remark... it will not offer you good outcomes over the long run. It's a narrow-minded view on what you can do with halflings.

Since his plan is to support 1 natural reroll... why invest big in the treemen anyway? The only way to break tackle actually good on treemen... if you start rerolling "take root" results. And "take root" will happen. Once the treemen has taken root, your juggernaut and Break Tackle is just stuck. And you wasted 40 k that would actually be doing something if you took it on another player. If you don't want a heavy reroll investment of rerolls on Trees... then "block" and "guard" are good... Since they always work and require you no roll at all. If you want to be funky you can also go for stuff like "jump up" and "pass" ... but I heavily advice against it.

For the person that actually asked the question... "Local League" ? Is this like a tabletop tournament? I don't really get what you are playing. Is this like a "resurection" tourney?... I really don't get it.

Skip the dryad... trust me, you don't want her.
Depending on your metagame... you either want the new zarra figure or deeproot. The stars are metagame choices.

That Karla Von Kill thingy is good against all teams that support movement and ag 4. Deeproot is just the bomb vs bashers. Karla has more versatility... Deeproot is power and injuries... and also a less reliable ballista. I like Deeproot a lot... but I understand fling players taking the new Amazon to town.

On the world cup (table top) Zarra was the starplayer used by the highest ranked fling coach. He went 5/1/3 after 9 games, and came in 189th of 912 people. Place 2 and 3 both had Deep Root (for as far as I remember) and they went 4/1/4 and 3/3/3 in a competitive format.

So I believe a case can be made for the amazon and the tree. It's nice that the new girl costs a bit less... gives you a bit more wiggle room.

People that say that "puggy" ain't good for the buck... really have no idea what they are talking about. It's a ST 3 block guy... he gives a "fairly" reliable blitz option. You just don't have to use him to blitz every turn. Just know how to use the guy, and he can be a menace for your opponent. Sometimes he'll go off after the first mistake or blitz, sometimes he'll stay around for the entire match... flings are just unreliable in general. But saying that "puggy" is bad, they just compare them to wardancers or something. It's a halfling team... you need to make due with what you get, and "puggy" is an awesome fling to get.

Skills heavily depend on playing style. There are diffrent strategies to folow that can give you a "reliable" (meaning, okayish in normal team terms) chance of success. But only skilling your treemen... will just end up in frustration on "take root" rolls. I prefer "side step" on my flings... but if you want go all in a competition, and you have the option to take some doubles... I advice:

1x Block for a "reliable" blitz and ball carrier option.
and if you can get it "Wrestle" for a "reliable" blitz and -2d option to get the ball free. Wrestle > Tackle since you'll encouter less turn overs. Don't "overstack" on flings if your resources are limited, it's just painfull to see all those double skilled flings on the bench. Do what flings do best... go wide.


EDIT: And why don't you like an apothecary? APO IS HUGE... with the new rule changes (making 10 results into auto BH on injury) ... your APO is just as good as a reserve in most games. It also saves your "doubles" in a lot of instances... and it keeps KO results on the field. And sometimes, when shit hit's the fan... it randomly saves a treeman!

_________________
It is a bit embarrassing to have been concerned with the human problem all one's life and find at the end that one has no more to offer by way of advice than 'try to be a little kinder'.
~Aldous Huxley~
Necross



Joined: Oct 22, 2014

Post   Posted: Jan 10, 2018 - 11:16 Reply with quote Back to top

@ kwek Yes it is a resurrection tournament for tabletop. My local league hosts it. Here is a link to its website and rules http://everett-bbl.org/styled-9/index.html

What makes Karla good vs ag 4? She is just Zara (stat line of 6438) with blodge, dauntless, and Jump up. No tackle or diving tackle. Also Deeproot is just as good at tossing flings as any other tree, but loner makes it harder to reroll 1s.

I am experienced at Halflings, I've just never played them in a tournament before. I feel the stars are as fallows: Puggy is a Swiss army knife, able to just about anything you need, but not going to do much damage in a fight. But 3+ cage dives for 1 die blocks, make him a good ball hawk. Willow is cheap muscle, Bertha is a battering ram being an Ogre with Dodge and Brake Tackle, but has bonehead. Karla/Zara are your elite blitzers, and everyone knows Morg. Halflings are deceptively bashy and the tournament gives you points for inflicting injures, regardless of how, and death results give a bonus point. (Thus kills equal a TD in tournament points awarded) fouling is good with them but as they are the ball handlers of the team, it is best not to go over board.

Halflings are cheaper then apothecaries but you do make a good case for taking one to counter Kos. I could drop a fling and get one.

To everyone: I stated in the op that I cannot put more the 40k in improvements on any one player. That means only one double skill (30k value) or two normal skills (20k each) per player at most. I am also allowed 150k total or improvements. So at most I can have 5 double skills, seven normal skills, or one double and six normal skills. I may also take + av or mv, but not ag or St.


Last edited by Necross on Jan 10, 2018 - 19:22; edited 1 time in total
pokrjax



Joined: Dec 01, 2014

Post   Posted: Jan 10, 2018 - 12:45 Reply with quote Back to top

Ag 4 teams can get to the ball carrier scarily easily as you start to lose players and your low ma leads to to make riskier moves/ formations to try and move forward late in the half (not always but sometimes), so the option of making that ball carrier st4 and blodge is good imo. The ability to blitz without overly exposing a fling for an assist is also great. I also love puggy and rate deeproot highly. I definitely wouldn't try to squeeze morg in here. On fouling, it really can be worth swarming your whole cage/bunker around someone most turns and gang fouling, if you have dirty player, and I would consider two flings with dp here. Of course, as you pointed out, you're looking quite low on numbers which makes the fouling strategy even more unsafe. A leader fling might not be a bad idea either. Wish I could give a more comprehensive reply but I have an exam later and shouldn't really be on fumbbl right now!
Shushnik



Joined: Feb 27, 2006

Post   Posted: Jan 10, 2018 - 12:59 Reply with quote Back to top

Is free lewdgrip outside of the typical 2 star limit? Because i would check on that before planning on puggy and deeproot if you're not sure.
Shushnik



Joined: Feb 27, 2006

Post   Posted: Jan 10, 2018 - 13:01 Reply with quote Back to top

Move 3 tree is pretty damned tempting...
kwèk



Joined: Nov 13, 2005

Post   Posted: Jan 10, 2018 - 13:38 Reply with quote Back to top

The General Problem with flings:

- AV 6 (backed up by stunty) is terrible
- ST 2 (is bad, not terrible, but just bad)
- MA 5 makes it, that you can only outrun ma 4 and 5 ... and you have a small chance of outmanoeuvring ma 6 if you steal rerolls (by doing go for its at the right point)

Movement (there is a threat somewhere over here about MA Vs AV on skill choice)... is key in most match ups for scoring and defending... it's an important stat. The less movement you have, the better your positioning game has to be. A Wood Elf with ma 7 , that stands up (after being blocked) can still chase the active area of the board (where the ball is) by moving 4 squares. While a dwarf lineman (ma 4) can only chase the active part of the board with 1. Flings lack movement... and because you can't play a heavy blocking game (like dwarves), you get pushed out of the way easily with 2D (without assists) your positioning is even more important. Zarra... kinda helps you out here. She has a movement of 6, has the ability to dodge (with dodge skill) and if you position her right... can easily keep up with most averages pieces in the game (since ma 6 is pretty much average and all around). The fact that she has ST 4 and Block... makes it, that she do 2D blocks without assists on most of the "average" (ST 3) pieces on the board with a good chance of succes or at least not a turn over (go go blocking with block, read: "The Art of Blocking"... absolutely necessary article if you want to better your game).

Next to that: The girl is also a good “ballcarrier”. Some coaches love to pick up the ball with her. She doesn’t go down easily. If the ball scatters free against a low movement team… the chances of them running away from you (with movement 5) are less big, then a gutter runner or elf catcher running to the other side of the field.

Deeproot, only has a movement 2. The cool thing is, that he will not take root and he has "block". He also comes with "strong arm" and "mighty blow" ... which is a big support piece for flings. But if you get outmanouvered, deeproot will not be able to help you (loner also means that GFI is not a smart plan). And if you start tossing flings around to create some defense (or even a projectile to hit parts of the cage), the normal treeman are just more reliable (since they can use a reroll). Deeproot however... keeps low movement (and even average movement) teams at bay. If your 3x Treemen are well positioned... the forest is a huge obstacle for them to overcome (bit why woodies like a treeman vs dwarves). It also gives you a good chance of winning the CAS race. Deeproot can also be effective vs elves and skaven ... BUT it will (most probably) not be able to wack down their catchers. However... a direct hit on AV 7 could result in KO / CAS because of MB more easily then if a fling would do it. But 2x Wardacner and 3 catchers... can still outrun halflings (specially treemen), even if you wack all the other stuff of the field. 3x Gutterrunner... will give you a bad time too. They just outspeed you so easily. It's just rough, even when the trees wack all the linos of the field, you are still going to have a tough time.


The biggest problem with fling progression is the lack of "general skills". Your choices are narrowed down to agility skill choices... and since you are playing a running game (you pretty much have to) "blocking" and "blitzing" your way out... is what you want to do. Yeah sure you can go all "dodgy" (because you have the dodge skill) ... however. I highly advice against it. It's nice to have dodge when you need it, but if dodging is the first thing you want to do in a turn... you are in a serious bad spot, or it's the only way to score without failing another dice. It's way more important to have some free players, to "blitz" (push is usually enough) other flings to freedom... so you can regroup, and put assists in, that the flings marked by opponent players can block with 2d. Maximizing blocks (except with treemen) isn't what you want to do (your team is not equiped to play that game) ... you just want players to leave you alone... so you can group, regroup, regroup, and slowly roll the forest into a spot where your flings feel comfy. Positioning is everything... if you make mistakes, it's usually all over... you just get bashed to smithereens. Fail your first unnecessary dodge? Get ready to get wacked off the field. Roll unnecessary dice? Fall on your face and get punished... that's the sad reality of the fling team. The only cool trump card you have, is that the random "throw team mate" option, always gives you hope to create something amazing and "stunt" your way out of a problem. (make sure your team has a bullet... a safety valve, you never know when you are going to need the random luck trick to help you out... it's an out, play to your outs)

Because you need to blitz and block... "block" and "wrestle" are needed. Therefore I'm not a fan of any starplayer that doesn’t make the problem go away. Not a lot of teams have starplayers that actually have "block" or "wrestle" available for a price they can afford (unless TV is off the charts) ... but flings do... therefore, use them. Keep away from the Ogress, keep away from the dryad. Choose BLOCK , and try to block with BLOCK (or 3D with treemen) as much as possible. You need the few rerolls you'll have to do things like "landing" and important GFI or try and wreck the ball free. Puggy and Deeproot and Zara/Klara (whatever her name is now) are good for that. The Ogre and the Dryad will just fail their blocks, at least the ogre has some protection (for herself) because she has "dodge"... but the dryad? That's just terrible? No protection, but "side step"? Well you can choose where she is going to fall down, but I rather have my stars standing up.

Your set up looks okay.
I play a lot with "deeproot" and "puggy" ... and usually have no reroll at all.
I think... if I would play your tournament I would go:

1x Deeproot Strongbranch (300K)
1x Puggy Baconbreath (140K)
2x Treeman (240K)
8x Halfling (210K)
1x Lewdgrip (for free, for some strange reason)
1x APPO (50K) (can be downgraded to fling , 1 coach , 1 cheerleader)
1x Cheff (100K) (absolute must)
1x FF
1x ASS Coach
1x Cheerleader

My skillset… 140K , means 7 normal skills. But I like at least 1x Block (to carry the ball). Usually, depending on metagame choices and skill options. I go full out on “Side Step” after picking my doubles. I like “guard” on the tree… but Side Step on flings is way more effective if you have loads of them. “Guard” however… helps your forest to protect itself, and helps your flings inside the forest to get easier blocks. But since you only get 140K to buy skills with… I would probably go for:

1x Treeman with Leader (Double – 30K) (this gives you 1 reroll)
1x Fling with Block (Double – 30K)
4x Fling with Side Step

You can also drop Deeproot… which opens up other strategies.
Cause you won’t feel obliged to take “leader”.

1x Karla (220K)
1x Puggy Baconbreath (140K)
2x Treeman (240K)
9x Halfling (210K)
1x Lewdgrip (for free, for some strange reason)
1x APPO (50K) (can be downgraded to fling , 1 coach , 1 cheerleader)
1x Cheff (100K) (absolute must)
1x Reroll
1x ASS Coach
1x Cheerleader

Then you get 14 guys… you can even go back to 13 guys and get an extra coach + cheerleader. This keeps your opponent from gaining rerolls. Not having them gain rerolls is a good thing. You have a bit more “foul” options in this list, and you get the natural reroll. This is still super competitive for flings. Now I would change the leader to “Wrestle”.

1x Fling with Wrestle (Double – 30K)
1x Fling with Block (Double – 30K)
4x Fling with Side Step (4x Normal - 80K)

Anyway, that would fit my playing style with flings. I wouldn’t invest in anything else then “side step” or “block” / “wrestle” in this set up. I can’t see the rules for other teams… It’s nice to see how much skills they get, to get an idea what you might be facing. It helps on choosing what set up is best to counter their strategy. You need every edge you can have… so thinking about what the opponent might play is important.

In the end… no matter which of the 3 setups (or others) you take… positioning is key. If you fuck up (let 3 flings be marked by 1 bull centaur for instance) you are just going to get screwed over. That’s how it works. Sure you can start all dodging… but I don’t trust dice. I fear every roll, especially with flings. I don’t care if a dwarf lineman fails a dodge, but flings failing dodges is just terrible in my experience. Especially if it’s the first thing you do. Knowing how to sequence, and knowing how to use the little movement you have to the maximum is important to win games.



EDIT:

Apo vs Halfling on the bench: YEAH, you are right, APO is way more expensive then a fling. But APO has some versatility to it.

1st half your fling with block goes BH? (he's going to have a big target on his head). You apo him. Now you gained 10K (Fling + Double = 60K , vs APO = 50K).

1st half, some mummy BHs or KO'd a treeman? (man, it happens) ... Apo to the rescue. Suddenly you changed 50K in 120K

Fling on the bench? Great stuff... but a fling going KO in second half? There is a good chance that the guy on the bench won't be nescessary annymore after 2nd half. So how does this end up? Well the APO saves your fling from going off, and the halfling looses 1 turn. Loosing a turn can be bad, but having to play 2nd half with 1 guy less is worst in a lot of occassions.

Can the APO fail you? SURE! if your opponent only hits SI and RIP results, the APO is just a 50 percent chance of saving all that. I would never use an APO on such a result unless it's a treeman OR a fling with a double... and even then, I would think about it super hard. Sometimes the APO doesnt do annything, and having a fling on the bench is better for fouling. There are pro's and cons to appos... but if you have the luxuary to have one. I think I would take him with me. I love the fact that he saves KO's (specially 2nd half) and I love the safety valve for my treemen. BUT AGAIN... it all comes down to playing style, and preferences. A lot of this is subjective. Like... if you have no idea how to use Side Step? My 4x Side Step Fling strategy, will just look all weird to you.


Pokrjax -> Largely agree with you. I'm just not a fan of the fouling strategy as your main thing. Ussually you already loose players because of blocks, and the fouling rules just don't suit me that much. However, I do foul key players even without DP. With DP is always better, but what if your guy gets send off without anny return? Then you wasted a double. Block (over the course of 5 or more games) just generates more value then DP does (in my opinion). I just don't like my doubles in the exiled spot.

Good luck with your exams btw... hope you ace them!


Sushnik -> I don't know about the rules. For some reason the link doesn't open. But I had the same question. I guess it's not? And yeah "ma 3" treemen is tempting... but again... I just hate to see my investment stuck in the ground. "Standing Up" has been gotten a lot better with the "Timberrr" rule. I just learned to live with ma 2... I don't want them turning into speedsters, I just want them to stay up, and hopefully not root, for as long as possible. (therefore, DONT ACTIVATE YOUR TREEMEN EVERY TURN unless you have a good plan, sometimes it's good to just stand around). That's the same comment I give on "Break Tackle" btw. I like "Break Tackle" in the Black Box. Flings have to spend all their money there (which is bad, cause it makes it tough to get inducements) ... so you overload on rerolls (you really don't need that much of them) Since you have rerolls to spare... you can start breaking tackle and rerolling root dice.

Yeah, flings really don't need that much rerolls... just look at people that play flings a lot. They ussually end up with having more rerolls then they can use (specially if the cheff works out) The reason is because a lot of turn overs will come from "dodges". And if they go: 1,1 ; 1,2 ; 2,1 ; 2,2 on you, you won't be able to reroll annything that turn annymore. But you have to learn to block with block (so you don't generate as much turn overs) you need to know when to take the bad dice (just like every other team) learn to live with failure (in fling teams strategy failure means something like "apocalyptic events") Rerolls should really be conserved for the 1 turner, the super important blitz, the super important gfi, ... annything that leads you to score or absolutely (not maybe) stops your opponent from scoring. You can also buy no stars (and buy rerolls)... in my stat list... my win/draw/loss percentage flips to a lot more "losses" then "wins" without the stars. I kinda break even a lot as long as I can support an extra treemen or the amazon. I almost always buy puggy.

NAF Tournaments without Star Players record: 34/33/66 in 27 tournaments
NAF Tournaments with Star Players record: 42/38/42 in 26 tournaments
NAF Tournaments total: 78/71/108 in 54 tournaments

That's just what I experience when I buy stars and when I don't buy stars. I kinda gave up on tournies that don't allow stars. Of course, the number of skills you get, are also super important. I remember the "Thrud Ball" where I ended up on the top tables last game, just because of crazy stat rules. We dit win 15 stunty cups (Huray)

_________________
It is a bit embarrassing to have been concerned with the human problem all one's life and find at the end that one has no more to offer by way of advice than 'try to be a little kinder'.
~Aldous Huxley~
Necross



Joined: Oct 22, 2014

Post   Posted: Jan 10, 2018 - 19:32 Reply with quote Back to top

Link to the tournament page has been fixed. http://everett-bbl.org/styled-9/index.html
kwèk



Joined: Nov 13, 2005

Post   Posted: Jan 10, 2018 - 19:42 Reply with quote Back to top

Doesnt that mean that "Lewdgrip" has to be purchased ?
You really don't want to go spending money on that guy...

And no diffrent tiers? everyone has exactly the same TV ? poor flings... lol that's kinda bad for them. No extra skills. You are going to have a tough time. Specially siince other people will buy lewdgrip (and he has tentacles) ... maybe you want some chaos dwarf advice instead Very Happy Do orcs intrest you? Very Happy

_________________
It is a bit embarrassing to have been concerned with the human problem all one's life and find at the end that one has no more to offer by way of advice than 'try to be a little kinder'.
~Aldous Huxley~
Shushnik



Joined: Feb 27, 2006

Post   Posted: Jan 10, 2018 - 19:45 Reply with quote Back to top

He's free and doesn't take up a star slot, so of course you should have him.
Wozzaa



Joined: Apr 23, 2016

Post   Posted: Jan 10, 2018 - 19:47 Reply with quote Back to top

kwèk wrote:
Does anyone that gave advice so far (yes, you 2) actually have enough experience with the little guys to actually teach the person that asks the question anything good? ... or did you see a threat, and you just had to reply for some odd reason?


That makes you sound rather arrogant.

I was just putting my opinion across.

I have a bit of experience with the little guys, but not in a resurrection tournament like this.

I read your advise, as someone who obviously (well you better) plays flings at lots of tournaments (would love to know your NAF name so I can see this vast experience for myself) and learned a lot, just don't think there is any need for 'I am better than you' attitude.

Also, I don't think my advice is that terrible.
garyt1



Joined: Mar 12, 2011

Post   Posted: Jan 11, 2018 - 00:44 Reply with quote Back to top

I've played a good Halfling coach a couple of times in tournaments and he caused me problems with Zara. She was a menace on defence and also when carrying the ball and surrounded by stunty dodging Halflings they were quite tricky to stop if you couldn't boot the little guys out quickly.
I think 14 players is an absolute minimum. 15 will help in a lot of matches where several Halflings are bashed up.
Block, wrestle, sidestep definitely useful stuff. One DP is definitely worth considering for when a good opponent goes down.

_________________
A wise man can learn more from a foolish question than a fool can learn from a wise answer.
kwèk



Joined: Nov 13, 2005

Post   Posted: Jan 11, 2018 - 09:03 Reply with quote Back to top

I've been crunching and pondering about this all night.
Wrote this to someone on the background... maybe you can get something from it. I don't know. Do with the info what you wish. But I don't think I would play this tournament with flings... for me, it will probably not turn out as a "fun" experience. There is a when it comes to an uphill fight. You can be fighting uphill the Kilimanjaro, and you can be fighting uphill the Mt Everest. This tourney ruleset has more Himalaya tendencies then the african more flat mountainside.


So here are some copypastes of what I wrote to someone else:

150K of skills, and you get them from game 1? What does that mean?
This tourney even lets players stack up skills... that's just terrible, cause it can polish every weak spot from almost every team out there.

Amazons:

4x Guard (on Blitzer)
1x Wrestle (on lineman)
1x Block + Sure Hands (on lineman)

... for flings, you need to have a lot of luck to beat this set up. This is just terrible for a halfling team.


Chaos:

4x Block (Chaos Warriors)
2x Wrestle (Beatmen)
1x ... something (probably sure hands)

... This is still doable. Not easy, but doable. Because of the lack of skill. But the access to ST4, means they are able to knock the treemen down. Annyway, there are worst set ups


Chaos Dwarves:

Already a bad set up to start with... but because they can stack skills, shit just hits the fan.

1x Block + Break Tackle (Bull Centaur)
1x Block + Sure Hands (Bull Centaur
2x Guard on a Chaos Dwarf
1x Wrestle on a hobgoblin

This just sucks. They get a reroll for the pick up (ussually you can beat them if they don't pick up the ball) They have ST 4 for the treemen... and their ST 4 gets "block". Just terrible. That means they have 3D on the flings with 1 assist. 4x Guard is just good to keep the treemen down.


Chaos Pact:

Ussually beatable because of no skills... But now they can choose to give:

2x Block (Ogre + Troll)
And still stack up on "Block" and "Wrestle"

... because of loner, and negative skills (like "stupid") you'll have more chance to beat them, then other teams. But "Mighty Blow" gives them the better chance of getting a treemen off then the chaos coach did. Can be tricky, but still doable.



Dark Elves:

This team sucks without skills. Even if you steal all the rerolls (that's your best chance) they are protected by AV8 (which will not let them fall to death like pro elves or woodies) and they have 4x Block (most block in the elf arsenal) Now they just have to load up on "dodge" and you are fucked (since you have no tackle). AG4 makes them do everything on a 2+ ... BAH

4x Blitzer with Dodge
1x Witch Elf with "Block" or "Wrestle"
1x Lineman with block
... now you can upgrade another lineman with block, the lineman with block can get dodge OR the witch elf gets sidestep. Or just take another witch and give her blodge / Wrestle. How are you going to beat this? Just terrible match up


Dwarves:

Ussually one of your better match ups... but if the opponent overloads on mighty blow, you are just going to get milled to bits. If they take guard, your forest will be cut. STill, if you outposition them.... (mainly, if your opponent sucks with dwarves, there are LOADS of sucky opponents that believe they can play dwarves) you can beat them.

Overloading on "Mighty Blow" is bad in general. But not against flings.


Elves:

Well you have a chance here. But still a tough match up. For some reason, you can't really screw them over putting tacklezones on their catchers (fucking nerves of steel) that's what ussually makes the diffrences in these games.

Annyway, they also will load up on natural rerolls like "dodge" , their blitzers are going to be a pain in the ass (with blodge) best opportunity you'll be having is killing the team with MB and hopefully get the overhand in positiong. Going to be tough tough. I rather play woodies... they are tough too, but at least you can have their catch reduced to 4+ by putting flings on their ass.


Goblins:

These guys are ussually superb to beat. I love to play against goblins. But in this set up, they are probably superior then a fling. They start with double block on trolls. I mean... I'm pretty sure that a good goblin coach doesnt doubt taking "block" on their trolls here. That's just great. Annyway, I would rather play goblins in this tourney then flings.



High Elves:

still beatable... more beatable then woodies or anny other elf.
They will still get "blodge" combos. Which are just terrible for flings
Makes them better at killing you (with block) gives them a natural reroll.



Humans:

If you have more skills then they have... then it's a good match up.
In this set up? They can get 1 Blodge ball carrier... which is nasty. They have movement 7, 4 times block to begin with... annyway. You have a chance... if the treemen do their thing. AG 3 gives you opportunities. They fail stuff, abuse their faillure to your benefit.



Khemri:

They fail stuff... this match up is doable... but don't think your forest will be standing up. It's a good match up, as long as they fail. You also can outrun them.



Lizardmen:

Just terrible. ST 4 , so easy to cut down the forest... WAAAAY more movement. And stuny movement 8 ? That means dodging in your cage and 1D on your ball carrier? Sounds sooooo verry bad.

6x Block on Saurus
1x Block on skink for a ball carrier OR Block on kroxigore.



Necromantic

Blodge Ghouls
Maybe Blodge Werewolves?
... at least you can tag the zombies (if they don't have block) they won't be able to knock down flings that easy. Annyway dunno about this one. Supermovement blodge can just suck.



Norse:

One of my favourite match ups... just let the treemen do the work. They probably won't go blodge... but Norse just depends on what happens... always fun, always super tense. As long as you know what you are doing. They already have block... but "movement 6" + "AG 3" + "av 7" gives you a fighting chance. They fail stuff, you can outrun them and they break. Their worst skill is "block"... I don't know what they'll pick afterwards. If you overload on sidestep you can just make their frenzy guys do really bad things. If the ulfwerner starts cutting down the forest, then you have a problem... this is one of those matchs up where the extra treeman is just bonkers.


Nurgle Rotters:

See the same remarks as chaos. They are also beatable. But "Disturbing Pressence" is a pain in the ass, since it stops Trow Team Mate

You'll have to run more, then fly



Ogres:

Doable... just problematic if they start killing treemen. But I've beaten my ogres even if they have more skills then me. Just doable, since the ogres go "duh" on the most weird moments... just exploit their misfortune to the max. You have to carefully wait for the right moment to do your thing.


Orcs:

They are more doable with 3th treemen. But them having so much skills is going to be rough. AV9 makes it difficult to hurt them. They are better then chaos, since the blitzers already start with block. It's not "uber terrible" ... but it's still really bad

BOB backed up with GUARD (since they don't have to take "block" on blitzers) ... cuts down the forest really well.


Skaven:

I hate them more then woodies... because they have reserves. IT's not that they are not doable... but the amazon is better then the 3th treemen in this one. Pug can do some fancy shit on their gutter runners... But they have so much skills to start with, so their gutter will have "blodge" , you don't have a lot of opportunities to get the ball, and they outspeed you in so manny ways. I don't think this match up favors you, but if you don't make mistakes... can be fun to play.



Slann

This just super dooper tough... cause they leap inside the cage, and have 2D all day.
Diving tackle can be a mess... so is "jump up" backed up with movement 7. It's hard to outrun them... almost impossible. Best chance? Steal their rerolls, hope the leaping fails. In this set up they can take 7x Block to start with... they are worst then norse now, just going to be rough cause they can get to the ball carrier so easily. ST 4 Blodge Zara is good to help you out here if she picks up the ball.


Undead:

Without skills, this is doable. Cause they will fail stuff. But Blodge ghouls? Block on their mummies? I mean... why not take block on the mummy?

2x Block on mummy
2x Block on Ghoul
1x Sure Hands on Ghoul

... they don't even need to give the wights annything.
The natural reroll on the ghoul, is SOOOO good. "Sure Hands" pretty much ruins the cheff plan;.. so does dodge




Underworld:

Terrible match up... they do everything (except Trow Team Mate) that you do... but they do it better. They have enough speed to keep up, and their goblins will dodge in the cage and 1D your ball carrier. They have 2x Storm vermin to back it all up. Just super bad



Vampires:

Doable specially if you steal all the rerolls. Best bet is to score 1-0 then make the Blodge guy score... now you are playing for a tie (which is okay) and a win if the throw team mate works out (or they start eating their entire team). Just wait your time, and protect the cage.



Wood Elves:

Normally a super tricky match up... the more skills they have the worst it gets. But they are doable. They do have LOADS of natural rerolls. If you pressure them enough, and watch out that they can't run away from you... they are ussually forced to score quickly. As long as you have the iniative you have a chance. And if you steal the rerolls, the wardancer needs to go SPLASH on leap. If wood elves succceed their most important rolls, there is no team in the LRB that can stop them. So again... if something goes wrong... MAXIMISE. Pressure catchers by putting them into tacklezones. Force them to make tricky plays quick, so you have enough turns to score yourself. That's what you need to do... and watch out for leap... once wardancer goes down... foul thecrap out of them.




If these teams have no skill (no block) you got a lot more chances to win some games. In my experience... every time team start off with skills, things just go sour quickly. First skills most people take are "block", and "block" just kills you. Specially if they are aware how to make 3D blocks. People just fuck up on taking 2D to much, because they don't know how to play against flings. Once you do know how to play against flings things just become bad for the fling coach.

But like I said in the threat... you have a chance to stunt your way out of there. But the more skills your opponent has, the worst it gets for the flings. Cause flings can only take agility skills (in my opinion Side Step is still the best choice, cause it gives you more control over the battlefield). While other teams take the skills that just butcher you in loads (like "block" is the best skill there is... and playing against flings proves that point even more).



Question by other person: "How Would you play them in this tournament?"

How I would do it?
In this set up?

I would take another Race... I think this is a tourney that is incredibly good for my style of how I like chaos Dwarves... I would say "no" to all teams that are good early on and bad later on (if I play to win the tournament). If I would take flings... It would more be, because I know a good fling coach is coming... and us 2 or 3 want to battle it out for the honor. I think most fling coaches now this is going to be a terrible tourney. Most fling coaches like tournaments with some progression. Like:

Day 1 / Game 1 : No Skill
Game 2 : 2 skills
Game 3 : 1 skill 1 double

... something like that... at least you can win the earlier games. Day 2 is going to be awfull cause all the teams have what they need to beat you more easily. And they don't need much. Like "Block" , the most natural skill of the game... is already enough to give you a hard time. If they have "block" elves, and they get "dodge" ? It's going to be miserable, cause you don't have the tools to handle them.

I've never had a good tourney with a skill set like this... so I think it's better to say "I don't know" ... There is no way for you to pick off wins early on, this ussually means you are fucked all the time. If you are going to look at my fling tournaments in detail... You'll find some tournies where I go "3-0" day 1 , because the skill count is low. This is were flings actually have a good fighting chance. In day 2, I ussually go way way worst, and you'll be playing for the draw a lot. Getting a draw will feel like a win if you are trying to battle 6x Saurus with block (for instance). (Lizardmen = AWFULL in my opinion... my playing style is not really equiped to get them, specially not if I can't 1d the sauri)


Anyways, I've been crushing my head over this all night... specially after reading the rules. I think way to much for my own health... and this is something that gives me headaches, cause I've been trying to figure out what the guy might meet. (Hence the breakdown). His matchups are going to terrible... UNLESS he fights coaches that are just bad, and make mistakes (I got a good win record against NAF ratings below 140, no matter what they play). Coaches that know what they are doing, are going to get all the stuff they need.


You can make 2 gambles in my opinion.
I really dislike the "break tackle" plan. If you do that... you need to give it on both treemen. That's also why I don't like the "break tackle" option on 1 tree. It's too unreliable. If the tree goes "root" it's all over. And you don't want that. If only 1 tree has break tackle, your opponent will probably be smart enough to take the other side where the treemen is that cant move. Getting ma 2 into position, because you only specialised 1 treemen... is terrible. It's not like a bullcentaur... You dont need 1 blitzer , 1 ball carrier. Bullcentaurs have 6 MA, and a potential MA 9 ... it creates the possibility to get everywhere on the board. Trees can't. So specialising just 1 treemen... feels bad, cause he'll just be left alone, and if you really want to go crazy with him, he'll just absorb masses amounts of rerollls, that you probably want to be spending on key turns instead of pushing Ma2 into position.


I'm really not sure to handle this... I tought the guy would be playing "tiers" , where flings get an advantage. It's nice that he gets lewdgrip, but not having "block" makes hims kinda unreliable. You can't really do much with him except pick up the ball. When I was younger... I would play these tournies... I just grew out of it. I either play to win, or I don't play at all. I try to be as competative as possible, even with halflings.


Annyway... how I would do this, from my experience:


1. I can choose to take the natural build that I always use. Even tough I know it's going to suck, maybe I can trick people in doing some mistakes with 4x Side Step. But I honestly hate this approach, because if my opponents are worth it... they will just run me over.


1x Deeproot Strongbranch (300K)
1x Puggy Baconbreath (140K)
2x Treeman (240K)
8x Halfling (210K)
1x Lewdgrip (for free, for some strange reason)
1x APPO (50K) (can be downgraded to fling , 1 coach , 1 cheerleader)
1x Cheff (100K) (absolute must)
1x FF
1x ASS Coach
1x Cheerleader


Skill set:

1x Block Halfling (you really need a blitzer that you can reroll
2x Guard on Treemen (I like Guard on Treemen, it increases your 3D block percentage, and helps out the flings. IT also saves you from dodges/leaps in the cage
4x Side Step (you can have more side step if you want, and reduce "guard")


... that's like my normal set up. But it's going to be strange, because your opponent has so much skills to begin with. This makes it that the forrest will go down to easily. You can also start protecting the forrest... which is also a good plan, and can work. That means giving protecting to your treemen:

2x Block on treemen (60 K)
1x Block on Fling (30K)
Spend 60 K on Sidestep halfling (like 3x Side Step Fling)
... You are on the full out damadge plan now... and againt bigger bashers (like Orcs and lizardmen = ST 4 + Block) your trees will have chance of standing up. It's a HUGE investement... cause it means that you give 3x Block = 90 K ... for the same amount your opponent gives 4x Block to 4 diffrent players. Don't underestimate this.

Another plan is having "Karla" as a ball carrier. Which I believe could turn out way better. The pay off is that you loose Deeproot as part of the forrest. Your ST3 Lewdgrip Tentacle guy AV9 ... will have to do some duty (not blocking, but putting assists and being in bad places for your opponent) ... HOWEVER, it will feel like playing "rosebark" , cause he's going to be smashed easily, but at least he'll attrack attention and the attention won't be going to the cage. If I knew what the metagame was... This choice would be a lot easier to make... I just believe that having a Ma 6 Blodge ball carrier in this set up of a tourney is great thing to have... it will make it a lot more difficult for your opponent. You need to be able to protect her, and support her all the way. Your trees are going to be to slow to keep up with her... so the flings need to do some heavy lifting.

1x Karla (220K)
1x Puggy Baconbreath (140K)
2x Treeman (240K)
9x Halfling (210K)
1x Lewdgrip (for free, for some strange reason)
1x APPO (50K) (can be downgraded to fling , 1 coach , 1 cheerleader)
1x Cheff (100K) (absolute must)
1x Reroll
1x ASS Coach
1x Cheerleader

Skill set:

1x Block on Halfling (remember, in offence karla is ballcarrier, don't you go blitzing with her)
Then you can start thinking about skilling treemen with either guard / block... REMEBER, the more doubles you spend, the more skilled players your opponent will have. I taking massive amounts on Side Step here, will give you more control over the board. I would even advice on taking a wrestler fling. The forrest will not have the 3th treemen... it will be more like a little bush, and certain teams will flatten it quickly. Other teams will still fear your treemen. You can have 6 side step flings... which is not to be underestimated. You can also go for 4x Sidestep fling and take 1 more double (like "Block" / "Wrestle")




If I would play them... it would be a gamble between these 3 choices... depending on how I feel that weekend. I kinda like the Karla plan.... because all the guys in the other teams will be overstocked with skills from the beginning. ST 4 Blodge Ball Carrier... has some great advantages.



Anyway, that's what I would do.
Not saying it's the correct thing... but it feels okay to what I've tried before.
There are some other experienced tabletop coaches on fumbbl... should look at the NAF site and ask them in private, I'm pretty sure they'll give you some hints, not everyone watches the forum.

The fact is just, that people all start with an equiped team. This means "block" and probably something that gives them a reroll "sure hands". I like to take "sure hands" in table top tournies, if you don't, you get punished by the first skaven/wood elf coach that preys on people not taking sure hands by taking "strip ball". It's kinda sad if you loose like that, because you can avoid it. "Sure Hands" also gives you a great "reroll" when needed... cause "picking up the ball" is important. This kinda negates your plan of stealing rerolls, it's not as easy to prey on misfortune. And flings need a bit of bad luck on the other side of the table to get a chance to capitalise on it.

Taking Block... is just terrible. And Block is still the most essential skill of the game it just generates value in offense and in defense... and also undermines the "steal reroll" tactic. But you just can't give more rerolls to your opponent... don't want them to reroll 3D blocks if you can prevent it. Having 3D against you is already bad, giving them the luxuary to reroll it makes it worst. Giving Slann and Woodies the chance to reroll leaps (and dodges) just makes it worst... so I just like having the cheff at all times, even tough he gets worst when teams are more equiped.


I can hear people go on the background: "But TV is the same for both teams, so they have to have the strength right?" ... That's just not true. Just try it for yourself. Take 2 chaos teams... equip one team with 6x MB , equip the other with 6x Block... after 20 games, come to me and tell me which one was more effective. Same TV right? But block is just better in the long run... it's less dice dependent, and it works in so manny ways. Not all skills are the same, some are just more powerfull then other. The fact that flings get upgrade to:

Side Step; Diving Tackle; Sure Feet; Catch (all 20K normal skill for a fling)

does not beat the general skill bracket

Block, Sure Hands, Tackle, ...


So measuring TV... in powerlevels, in my opinion, is kinda crazy. Sure, at some point your all mighty blow chaos will luck out, and get all cwazy... but I think most experience coaches will agree that they rather have the 6x Block team to get their tourney started with.

_________________
It is a bit embarrassing to have been concerned with the human problem all one's life and find at the end that one has no more to offer by way of advice than 'try to be a little kinder'.
~Aldous Huxley~
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