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Poll
What to do with the Slann Blitzer?
No changes needed, the skill access makes up for the price.
29%
 29%  [ 44 ]
Discount Blitzer Please.
26%
 26%  [ 39 ]
Exchange diving tackle or jump up for block.
11%
 11%  [ 17 ]
Stop Complaining.
32%
 32%  [ 49 ]
Total Votes : 149


mrt1212



Joined: Feb 26, 2013

Post   Posted: May 31, 2018 - 18:57 Reply with quote Back to top

Sp00keh wrote:
mrt1212 wrote:
WHAT?!

To think we've spent any amount of time indulging him...

The only excuse is that there's not much else going on in the forum


https://fumbbl.com/index.php?name=PNphpBB2&file=viewtopic&t=30024

I tried!
Sp00keh



Joined: Dec 06, 2011

Post   Posted: May 31, 2018 - 20:52 Reply with quote Back to top

It's a good post
Kind of intimidating to respond to... Does need tldr because your points aren't that cohesively summarised/framed
mrt1212



Joined: Feb 26, 2013

Post   Posted: May 31, 2018 - 21:38 Reply with quote Back to top

Yah, it was a stream of consciousness after reading and I hadn't eaten anything yet. But hopefully there are some pearls in there.
thoralf



Joined: Mar 06, 2008

Post   Posted: May 31, 2018 - 22:13 Reply with quote Back to top

TL;DR - T REALLY likes BB.

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JellyBelly



Joined: Jul 08, 2009

Post   Posted: Jun 01, 2018 - 12:33 Reply with quote Back to top

Image

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Catalyst32



Joined: Jul 14, 2008

Post   Posted: Jun 06, 2018 - 17:28 Reply with quote Back to top

cdassak wrote:
mrt1212 wrote:
Catalyst32 rolls too many dice ergo he puts too much stock in Pro. Fin.


He does obviously, his only developped Slann at 2240 have:

5RR

no Pro or Dodge on the Blitzers

one wrestle/pro/fend Catcher which I don't know why isn't a blodge/sh or even a wrestle/SB/dauntless Catcher

one wrestle/pro/fend Lino which could be a wrestle/sb/tackle (or dauntless) one

and an injured Block/Pro/Dauntless Lino which would be better gone or Block/Kick/Tackle (or Fend)

Still, would be interesting to see how (bad) such teams would look ideally.



Ah. Come on Rolling Eyes
You can't base your argument on that team (where I clearly mismanaged the TV)... when you don't know how many different gaming theories I was play testing at the same time.

I chose a poor starting roster (1 choice I was making which I would not use again). It was a roster I had tried with Humans with some success (an MA6 ST3 AG3 AV8 team without Leap and VLL). And in part because of Slann Blitzer PRICE and in part because of bad TV management it didn't work nearly as well.

I took more Team Rerolls than I would now (following the advice you guys constantly give in this thread about "you would use a Team Reroll there instead of Pro" and much less Pro than I would the next time).
THIS choice I made on the typical advice you guys give about wanting a Team Reroll... "you gotta have a Team Reroll for that" seriously hurt the team.
I could have 5 more guys with Pro at the price of 1 of those Team Rerolls for a much more efficient team. 2 Pro was enough with 5 TRR but, 4 Pro and 4 TRR would be better and 5 (maybe 6) Pro with 3 TRR might be better still.

I took several skills at the wrong time in the progression I would advocate now. And I was earning skills on players I didn't really want to skill because of MVPs.

I didn't burn and churn ANY players to maintain a lower TV which I would do now to better manage TV (IN PART because what I was doing TACTICALLY was something I thought would protect my players so they would be on the Pitch more than usual. That aspect worked better than expected.)

I couldn't assign my MVPs then the way I can now which would push the skills where they need to go rather than needing to risk hand-offs to score with players to skill them.
NOW I can just score with the Catchers every time, or just score with whoever gets the ball knowing the MVP is there. And this MVP mechanic plays better into my play style.

The changes and the tweaks that make that team different to what I am talking about are massive. Especially with the TV management and MVP allocation.
Honestly, does THAT team look like the roster I have been describing? Rolling Eyes


Last edited by Catalyst32 on Jun 06, 2018 - 17:45; edited 1 time in total
Harad



Joined: May 11, 2014

Post   Posted: Jun 06, 2018 - 17:37 Reply with quote Back to top

No because you are getting 5 times pro for 50k of TV Wink
I know what you mean because you are comparing it to the 100k purchase price but I think the TV is a more appropriate comparison Smile
Catalyst32



Joined: Jul 14, 2008

Post   Posted: Jun 06, 2018 - 17:50 Reply with quote Back to top

Harad wrote:
No because you are getting 5 times pro for 50k of TV Wink
I know what you mean because you are comparing it to the 100k purchase price but I think the TV is a more appropriate comparison Smile


OK.
Still as I just added in an edit while you were writing that. I could have added 2.5 more Pro for the price of the TRR.
Then my 4 Pro with 4 TRR team would have been more efficient.
Or my 5 or 6 Pro with 3 TRR team (depending on some additional play testing) would be more efficient.

The point being... the "you want a TRR for that roll advice" everybody pushes being WRONG.
Harad



Joined: May 11, 2014

Post   Posted: Sep 18, 2018 - 10:57 Reply with quote Back to top

So I have completed my test:
I created two slann teams at 1600 TV, one as per bghandras' suggestions and one inferred from Catalyst32s suggestion. At this TV, the main difference was that there was less dodge on Catalyst32s suggesion. They each played 6 games against an orc team, a dwarf team, a high elf team, a human team and a chaos team.
The results were as follows:

Team dodge - Orcs 1-2-3 Dwarves 2-0-4 High elf 2-2-2 Human 2-2-2 Chaos 2-3-1 - Total 9-9-12
Team almost no dodge Orcs 2-1-3 Dwarves 2-1-3 High elf 1-2-3 Human 2-2-2 Chaos 1-2-3 - Total 8-8-14

Anecdotally the lack of dodge was good against dwarves and/or teams high on tackle but weaker against teams low on tackle.

The key flaws in the test were a) the randomness of the dice and b) there was an assumption that these teams could be built.

My overall conclusion was that blodge has some increased utility but it is a reasonably marginal gain. I would not say that there was a statistically significant result either way but I think an observer would see how lacking it really cost one against teams like chaos which had good kill skills but were a bit low on tackle.

I also decided to have a brief look at higher tv and built some 2200 tv teams extending the ideas of Catalyst 32 and a more conventional blodge build. I only played 5 games with each of these (blodge 1-3-1 , non blodge 0-3-2) but I found the team relying more on pro and lacking dodge to be significantly worse. My frogs sometimes had to be left in contact and the lack of blodge left them being cut down whilst pro proved to be largely a frustration: either I didn't care that much about the result and got a free go at improving something I didn't care about or I had to use a reroll. I very rarely got to use it on something that actually mattered to me.

So in no way, do I claim this is conclusive but I certainly think that the null theory, that the collective wisdom that blodge is largely a good idea and that pro is ok but isn't that useful, isn't threatened to the extent it should be thrown away and if anything the evidence is leaning towards reinforcing it.
NickNutria



Joined: Jul 25, 2006

Post   Posted: Sep 18, 2018 - 11:49 Reply with quote Back to top

Dodge is way better than pro, it is a rr that is always working amd increases chances not to be powed.

Pro is usefuk, but it is mostly used wrong: you use pro to reroll a two die block result (with block) that only resulted in a push, you only fail in 1/2 * 1/36 so no great risk, but might be a big reward. If you've got pro on many blockers, you've got lot's of free rr a turn to create more pows per round.
Harad



Joined: May 11, 2014

Post   Posted: Sep 18, 2018 - 12:00 Reply with quote Back to top

I think many strong players would see it the other way round Nick regarding pro. You only upgrade the push say 1/2* 27/36 and it didn't matter that much (otherwise you'd have properly rerolled). Whereas you could suffer catastrophe 1/72.
mister__joshua



Joined: Jun 20, 2007

Post   Posted: Sep 18, 2018 - 12:43
FUMBBL Staff
Reply with quote Back to top

Harad wrote:
So I have completed my test *snip*


Haha. I can't believe you're still doing this! I'm amazed. Both impressed and disappointed in equal measure Razz

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Weresquid



Joined: Mar 25, 2016

Post   Posted: Sep 18, 2018 - 13:13 Reply with quote Back to top

Never expected you to actually do that testing, nice work.

Regarding pro, on blitzers it wins games since it prevents you from greedily wasting rerolls on pushes. If you’re extra lucky the pro roll fails and you avoid the uneccesary turnover. Double benefit!
Harad



Joined: May 11, 2014

Post   Posted: Sep 18, 2018 - 13:20 Reply with quote Back to top

I generally find good discipline a better way of not wasting rerolls on pushes Smile
But I agree there is an interesting point here. I have long argued with others that some skills that are supposedly great (e.g. frenzy) are not so good for weaker coaches. Perhaps you make a valid point that pro has increasing utility for weaker coaches as a) it helps them not to use rerolls on less important things and b) a point someone else made, they roll more dice/run out of rerolls etc. so pro will be more valuable for them.
I'd still suggest that they go for dodge first but in relative terms I think there is merit in the argument.
NickNutria



Joined: Jul 25, 2006

Post   Posted: Sep 18, 2018 - 14:23 Reply with quote Back to top

Harad, you got 27 times a better result for 1 worse result. I think 27:1 is ok, in my opinion. 1/72 means you've got less than 1 fail per match (a match has somethig between 30 and 60 blocks). A risk I would take any time.
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