56 coaches online • Server time: 18:17
Index Search Usergroups Profile
Log in
Recent Forum Topics goto Post [SL] Training Ground...goto Post FUMBBL cup XVII: Pre...goto Post Dice stats feature r...
SearchSearch 
Post new topic   Reply to topic
View previous topic Log in to check your private messages View next topic
Poll
What to do with the Slann Blitzer?
No changes needed, the skill access makes up for the price.
29%
 29%  [ 44 ]
Discount Blitzer Please.
25%
 25%  [ 38 ]
Exchange diving tackle or jump up for block.
11%
 11%  [ 17 ]
Stop Complaining.
33%
 33%  [ 49 ]
Total Votes : 148


JmBeers



Joined: Aug 13, 2012

Post   Posted: May 09, 2018 - 21:30 Reply with quote Back to top

I have been looking at the price of slann blitzer compared to positional counterparts on other rosters. It just seems like they are too expensive. They receive a one to one TV bonus per skill they have over the slann lineman.

Slann Lineman = 60K
Slann Bliter = 110K (+1 Ma/30K, diving tackle/20K, Jump Up/20K)

Compared to other rosters (specifically elf rosters) the blitzer feels expensive.
Dark elf blitzer compared to lineman = 20K discount
Elf Union B vs L = 50K discount
High Elf B vs L = 20K discount
Woodies Dancer vs L = 40K discount

The Khemri, Orc, Dwarf, Human, Undead, and Skaven all have discounted blitzers. Ranging from 10K-70K.

The two positions that seem to compare directly to the Slann blitzer are the Norse berserker, and the Dark witch elf. All three of these potions get no discount compared to their team's lineman and all three of these players have jump up. This makes me wonder why is Jump up valued as such a premium skill? With Pile on I can see an argument but, with the skill removed from the game these positionals feel outdated compared to the TV you play at while fielding them. The berserker has block and the witch elf has dodge while your 110K frog can't do much until they have at least two skills, (Bock/Dodge/Side Step or so on). At higher tv it becomes a real struggle to replace a killed/retired blitzer. Your team will only drop 60-100K to add a rookie to your team but the lost value is significantly more impactful to your roster. If the blitzer is improved or made cheeper I could hear an argument to reduce the positional slot from 4 down to 2. As it is I almost never see more than 2 blitzes on a team anyways.
Weresquid



Joined: Mar 25, 2016

Post   Posted: May 09, 2018 - 21:48 Reply with quote Back to top

I voted to give them block, but its a bit more complicated.

I agree the blitzers are too expensive for what they do, but I think a slightly bigger rewrite of the roster is warranted. Any roster that starts with zero core skills is going to have problems early on, and they dont have enough armor and general toughness to build easily (unlike chaos, nurgle etc.). They even have the only ST2 player in the game without dodge, arguably the squishiest positional of them all.

Im not saying they have to be tier 1, but adding a bit of block/dodge/wrestle/sure hands/whatever and rewriting the roster around that for balance would make them a lot more viable.

Now I know some people think they are fine, and some think that weird schtick teams like slann and vampire should be a bit underpowered, but I maintain that any team that starts with no reliability skills should have stats to compensate regardless of fun starting skills.
Harad



Joined: May 11, 2014

Post   Posted: May 09, 2018 - 21:50 Reply with quote Back to top

You are looking at the wrong teams Smile I see a lot with 4 blitzers. I think they're extremely tough out of the box but over time and with +ST or +AG they become a nightmare
See exhibit A
https://fumbbl.com/p/team?op=view&team_id=744258
or B
https://fumbbl.com/p/team?op=view&team_id=865748
or even our own C
https://fumbbl.com/p/team?team_id=857388

Obviously much less likely in the box where playing slann is a different challenge and requires a bit more sweetspotting, but even there some well developed blitzers go a long way and I don't do much worse with them than with others.
Wozzaa



Joined: Apr 23, 2016

Post   Posted: May 09, 2018 - 21:52 Reply with quote Back to top

If they started with Block and were 110k, they would be up there with one of the best pieces in the game.
pokrjax



Joined: Dec 01, 2014

Post   Posted: May 09, 2018 - 21:53 Reply with quote Back to top

JmBeers wrote:
Slann Lineman = 60K
Slann Bliter = 110K (+1 Ma/30K, diving tackle/20K, Jump Up/20K)


Isn't that a 20k discount?
JmBeers



Joined: Aug 13, 2012

Post   Posted: May 09, 2018 - 21:58 Reply with quote Back to top

Ha yes it is! And I am officially an idiot Smile

Still hold that they are not good out of the gate and extremely hard to replace at higher TV but yeah, I'm dumb...
Arktoris



Joined: Feb 16, 2004

Post   Posted: May 09, 2018 - 22:11 Reply with quote Back to top

there's synergy with the upgrades and stats.

Jump up combos well with diving tackle along with 7M and 8AV (other JU players are 7AV)

add to it they get 3 nice skill category access and 110k is a good price.

_________________
Hail to Frik! The latest charioteer to DIE for bloodbowl! - Slain, by Raiders of the Lost Tomb
ArrestedDevelopment



Joined: Sep 14, 2015

Post   Posted: May 09, 2018 - 22:13 Reply with quote Back to top

20k cheaper, and they do have, unlike both the Witch Elf and the 'Zerker, GSA access.

I think the team is absolutely fine to be honest. Especially without spiralling expenses.

_________________
Image
Weresquid



Joined: Mar 25, 2016

Post   Posted: May 09, 2018 - 22:19 Reply with quote Back to top

Costs above 100k are usually shaved down quite a bit. Look at the zerker (costs 90k, no discount) versus the wardancer (costs 120k, large discount). The same is the case with most expensive positionals (maybe all, haven't looked through all the rosters for this).
MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: May 09, 2018 - 22:28 Reply with quote Back to top

Slann Blitzers are overpriced indeed, who cares if they have Diving Tackle and Jump Up, when they lack the Blitzer core skill, Block (or Wrestle) and they need 16 SPPs to be blodgers (or wrodgers) and therefore replacing them in a league requires more time.
About Witch Elf and Zerker: Witch Elf has Dodge, that is a core skill, gives protection and has synergy with AG 4, and the Zerker has Block and Frenzy, both useful skills for a Blitzer-type player.
I'd really love a Slann Blitzer discount, or alternatively, replacing either Jump Up or Diving Tackle with Wrestle (or Block).

_________________
Please vote the Diving Catch and Break Tackle/Diving Tackle bug reports, thanks!
Weresquid



Joined: Mar 25, 2016

Post   Posted: May 09, 2018 - 22:42 Reply with quote Back to top

Wozzaa wrote:
If they started with Block and were 110k, they would be up there with one of the best pieces in the game.

No one (sane) would claim they should get block with no other changes. Jump up and DT are good skills they might want anyway, but block/wrestle is important for them to do their job at all so starting without is a huge handicap, and one unneccesary for balance IMO.
ArthurWynne



Joined: Sep 23, 2015

Post   Posted: May 09, 2018 - 22:49 Reply with quote Back to top

It's odd to have a Blitzer that isn't really better at Blitzing than a Lineman, but from a balance perspective I think they are fine. And for that matter I really like that there are teams that make use of the more unusual skills, so I wouldn't want to replace either of the skills they currently have. I'd say you have to add Block on top of the skills they already have, and adjust the price accordingly -and if you do that they become overdescribed IMO.

Slann are not just weird and schticky, they are also quite powerful if they manage to build to a decent TV. If you want to redesign them to build more easily I think your logic commits you to rebuilding a good chunk of the rosters in the game. As things stand, it's part of the design intent that different teams have different development curves.
MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: May 09, 2018 - 23:00 Reply with quote Back to top

ArthurWynne wrote:
As things stand, it's part of the design intent that different teams have different development curves.

And due to this design intent, the powerful races are overrepresented and super common, while the weaker races are rare.
I played 2275 games in the Box and met only 37 Slann teams.
With more balance across the rosters there would be more variety.

_________________
Please vote the Diving Catch and Break Tackle/Diving Tackle bug reports, thanks!
Harad



Joined: May 11, 2014

Post   Posted: May 09, 2018 - 23:08 Reply with quote Back to top

Whilst it would obviously help, people are not choosing their races in the box principally by win probability (as our experiences show, the races ARE surprisingly well balanced in the main). They choose teams because they allow thoughtless and lower skill victories / being the right side of the bash war. If you improve slann in this sort of way I don’t think they would be played loads more as it still would require more thought to win with them. If you improve slann blitzers you largely just help those of us who play with them to win more than they should in my opinion.
MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: May 09, 2018 - 23:17 Reply with quote Back to top

Loads more not, but a bit more maybe and that would be positive.
Having less frustration when replacing Slann Blitzers might encourage more people to play them (some coaches don't care a lot about wins, but they like to build players and Blitzers starting with either Wrestle/Block would speed up the building process).
Anyway, I was speaking in general about the weak races, I mentioned the Slann because they are in this topic.

_________________
Please vote the Diving Catch and Break Tackle/Diving Tackle bug reports, thanks!
Display posts from previous:     
 Jump to:   
All times are GMT + 1 Hour
Post new topic   Reply to topic
View previous topic Log in to check your private messages View next topic