Arktoris
Joined: Feb 16, 2004
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 Posted:
Nov 27, 2018 - 21:47 |
 
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Superior "yep, and if you think assassins are such easy prey and stab is rubbish...then I won't have to chase you, won't I?
Looking forward to seeing Coca Loca RL on the pitch soon." |
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Hail to Manowar! The latest charioteer to DIE for bloodbowl! - Slain, by Ghor Oggaz |
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mrt1212
Joined: Feb 26, 2013
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| Posted:
Nov 27, 2018 - 21:50 |
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Maybe we could meet in a Brawl with Coca Loca BBL? Think you can make a final there?  |
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Arktoris
Joined: Feb 16, 2004
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Nov 27, 2018 - 21:53 |
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If those finally happen, sure. usually i just sit around 2 1/2 hours waiting for 8 players...just to play a 1000TV team.
If not, how about Coca Loca RL tomorrow night at 9pm EST. Your blocking vs my stabbing. |
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Hail to Manowar! The latest charioteer to DIE for bloodbowl! - Slain, by Ghor Oggaz |
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mrt1212
Joined: Feb 26, 2013
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Nov 27, 2018 - 22:06 |
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Not the Instasmacks the Bar Brawls. https://fumbbl.com/p/group?op=view&group=7922.
Coca Loca RL isn't even a team at this point. A few odds and ends, couple of busted players and rookies. BBL is way more aligned with my vision of a complete team that does the things I want it to do with it.
But more to the point - isn't this academic basically? Couldn't you pour over all your games and count instances of usage with stab, % of turns played, etc etc? We don't need 1 game to determine how much mileage you get out of them - you can look to your 200 odd games in detail and report back to us.
My hunch is you remember the good times more than all the ineffectual ones. |
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PainState
Joined: Apr 04, 2007
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Nov 27, 2018 - 22:15 |
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| Khaltan wrote: | | PainState wrote: | I will give you the very short version of my assassin thread from 3 years ago.
The chances to break a players AV with stab is always greater than blocking a player and breaking his armor. The math is the same from AV7 to av10. Stabbing always has a better chance to break AV than blocking and following it up with a AV break roll. |
That's only true in the absence of mighty blow. With mighty blow blocking is frequently more likely to break armour and even more frequnetly more likely to cause casualties or KOs. Admitably that's a doubles skill on elves, but it doesn't reaquire picking a AV7 character and og cause a knowckdown is still a lot better than nothing, which is what an assassin gets if his stab fails (though of cause the assassin cannot roll skulls). |
It is true even with MB. Chances to break AV on a single roll (stab) > Than a chance to break AV with or with out MB because you still have to roll block dice. SO, it is a block roll followed by a AV check roll.
Odds to break AV with stab. This is static and never changes.
AV7 41.667
AV8 27.77
AV9 16.667
Odds to knock down a Assassin who has block on 2dice and break AV.
23.148 with MB it goes up to 32.407
Odds to knock down a blodge assassin with 2block dice and you have no tackle and break AV.
12.731 and 17.824 with Mighty Blow. |
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Arktoris
Joined: Feb 16, 2004
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Nov 27, 2018 - 22:30 |
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| PainState wrote: | | Khaltan wrote: | | PainState wrote: | I will give you the very short version of my assassin thread from 3 years ago.
The chances to break a players AV with stab is always greater than blocking a player and breaking his armor. The math is the same from AV7 to av10. Stabbing always has a better chance to break AV than blocking and following it up with a AV break roll. |
That's only true in the absence of mighty blow. With mighty blow blocking is frequently more likely to break armour and even more frequnetly more likely to cause casualties or KOs. Admitably that's a doubles skill on elves, but it doesn't reaquire picking a AV7 character and og cause a knowckdown is still a lot better than nothing, which is what an assassin gets if his stab fails (though of cause the assassin cannot roll skulls). |
It is true even with MB. Chances to break AV on a single roll (stab) > Than a chance to break AV with or with out MB because you still have to roll block dice. SO, it is a block roll followed by a AV check roll.
Odds to break AV with stab. This is static and never changes.
AV7 41.667
AV8 27.77
AV9 16.667
Odds to knock down a Assassin who has block on 2dice and break AV.
23.148 with MB it goes up to 32.407
Odds to knock down a blodge assassin with 2block dice and you have no tackle.
12.731 and 17.824 with Mighty Blow. |
exactly...which is why mrt1212 has avoided the opportunity to mark my assassin tomorrow.
His frontal cortex may not have done the math...but the rest of his brain did. |
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Hail to Manowar! The latest charioteer to DIE for bloodbowl! - Slain, by Ghor Oggaz |
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fidius
Joined: Jun 17, 2011
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| Posted:
Nov 27, 2018 - 22:37 |
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Current:
4x Blitzer 7348 Block 100k
2x Assassin 6347 Stab Shadowing 90k
Fixed:
2x Blitzer 7348 Block 100k
2x Assassin 7348 Stab Shadowing 100k |
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mrt1212
Joined: Feb 26, 2013
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| Posted:
Nov 27, 2018 - 22:43 |
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| Arktoris wrote: | | PainState wrote: | | Khaltan wrote: | | PainState wrote: | I will give you the very short version of my assassin thread from 3 years ago.
The chances to break a players AV with stab is always greater than blocking a player and breaking his armor. The math is the same from AV7 to av10. Stabbing always has a better chance to break AV than blocking and following it up with a AV break roll. |
That's only true in the absence of mighty blow. With mighty blow blocking is frequently more likely to break armour and even more frequnetly more likely to cause casualties or KOs. Admitably that's a doubles skill on elves, but it doesn't reaquire picking a AV7 character and og cause a knowckdown is still a lot better than nothing, which is what an assassin gets if his stab fails (though of cause the assassin cannot roll skulls). |
It is true even with MB. Chances to break AV on a single roll (stab) > Than a chance to break AV with or with out MB because you still have to roll block dice. SO, it is a block roll followed by a AV check roll.
Odds to break AV with stab. This is static and never changes.
AV7 41.667
AV8 27.77
AV9 16.667
Odds to knock down a Assassin who has block on 2dice and break AV.
23.148 with MB it goes up to 32.407
Odds to knock down a blodge assassin with 2block dice and you have no tackle.
12.731 and 17.824 with Mighty Blow. |
exactly...which is why mrt1212 has avoided the opportunity to mark my assassin tomorrow.
His frontal cortex may not have done the math...but the rest of his brain did. |
That the assassin can murk guys more efficiently if given the opportunity isn't in dispute - What is in dispute is whether that ability is worth it on the whole, whether they can reasonably develop to a point of not being the weakest link on the pitch, and how exactly they fit in on a DE roster at various player counts and TW levels.
That you can't separate an aversion to contact from any player and assassins is your folly, not mine. Assassin don't get extra double points for being mark adverse targets in a game where being mark adverse is generally a good thing. |
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PainState
Joined: Apr 04, 2007
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Nov 27, 2018 - 22:49 |
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IMO what makes assassin's to weak with stab is they cannot re-roll the stab AV Check. If they could re-roll the AV check then now you got something.
The entire discussion does revolve around the in ability to push targets back with stab and that they have AV7 and need to be in contact to stab and shadow which increases their mortality rate.
So back to the OP....the proper Assassin build is B/D/SS and doubles take Multi block.
Which presents another question. If you roll a 10 do you take the +MA for shadowing and general mobility OR take the +AV to get your assassin some real armor to help his mortality issues? |
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Antithesisoftime
Joined: Aug 20, 2014
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Nov 27, 2018 - 22:54 |
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I've been having some decent success with an assassin in NCBB.
He's not my best player, never will be, but he's useful, and has a lot of utility, especially in a division where I play Dwarves, 2x Undead, Necro, Lizard, Skaven, and Dark Elves every season, with a mix of other occasional opponents to fill out my schedule.
First couple games, I used him for those cases where I needed a blitz on a ball carrier, and couldn't free a wrackler, a stripper, or even a blockle. Sometimes it worked, others it didn't. With a lil guard support, maybe shadowing does a thing, maybe not. And, if I need a foul somewhere for whatever reason, he can do it, since unlike the rest of the team, he was unskilled.
Where he really started to shine was after a pass and MVP, and he picked up dodge at 6 SPP.
Assassin have a bad wrap for being useless. Own it. I'm willing to dodge into a cage with Ag4 and a free RR, if I have no easier shot on the ball. If I make the 5+ I have much better odds of popping the ball with an assassin than with a -2db or -3db, and now my opponent has at least one forced action on his turn. I won't keep an assassin alive very long using him this way, but there really isn't a better use.
A little more feeding, got him blodge, and can't really see a need for much else. I mean, I'd love Side-step, Fend, Jump Up, maybe guard or a stat if I get lucky, probably put leap in over fend, but most of that's wishful thinking.
So, don't think about why there aren't legend assassins, or see them as being useless.
If you use them, just have fun with them. Make them work for you, however you find that can be done.
On another note, if there was really anything that could improve an assassin, it would be allowing them to move before and after a stab on a blitz. |
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gamelsetlmatch
Joined: Mar 05, 2013
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| Posted:
Nov 27, 2018 - 22:59 |
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| mrt1212 wrote: | | gamelsetlmatch wrote: | "Unlearn what you have learned, you must!"
If your assasin is your blitzer, he wont snd up standing beside players as much |
What? You can move after stab actions on a blitz? |
No, but you can pile guys around him and you dont have to always stab |
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Stargate!
“In our play we reveal what kind of people we are.” |
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mrt1212
Joined: Feb 26, 2013
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| Posted:
Nov 27, 2018 - 23:14 |
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| gamelsetlmatch wrote: | | mrt1212 wrote: | | gamelsetlmatch wrote: | "Unlearn what you have learned, you must!"
If your assasin is your blitzer, he wont snd up standing beside players as much |
What? You can move after stab actions on a blitz? |
No, but you can pile guys around him and you dont have to always stab |
Ceding position to protect an assassin? What is he, a ClawMb Stormvermin surrounded by UW gobbos? |
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mrt1212
Joined: Feb 26, 2013
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| Posted:
Nov 27, 2018 - 23:16 |
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| PainState wrote: | IMO what makes assassin's to weak with stab is they cannot re-roll the stab AV Check. If they could re-roll the AV check then now you got something.
The entire discussion does revolve around the in ability to push targets back with stab and that they have AV7 and need to be in contact to stab and shadow which increases their mortality rate.
So back to the OP....the proper Assassin build is B/D/SS and doubles take Multi block.
Which presents another question. If you roll a 10 do you take the +MA for shadowing and general mobility OR take the +AV to get your assassin some real armor to help his mortality issues? |
I feel like the choice between MA and AV rests on the development curve of when they get it - earlier and I'd opt AV, later and I'd opt +MA. |
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Mateuszzzzzz
Joined: Feb 26, 2006
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Nov 27, 2018 - 23:27 |
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They are good at marking prone players, also as an general ss annoyance. Shadowing can be surprisingly annoying, so i would definately go +ma if given a choice (as i always do), guard on dubles over multiblock. On normals dodge, sidestep, jump up, wrestle (block here if i have guard on him). |
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thoralf
Joined: Mar 06, 2008
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| Posted:
Nov 27, 2018 - 23:46 |
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| fidius wrote: | Current:
4x Blitzer 7348 Block 100k
2x Assassin 6347 Stab Shadowing 90k
Fixed:
2x Blitzer 7348 Block 100k
2x Assassin 7348 Stab Shadowing 100k |
No. |
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