delusional
Joined: Jan 18, 2013
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 Posted:
Nov 28, 2018 - 00:39 |
 
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| fidius wrote: | Current:
4x Blitzer 7348 Block 100k
2x Assassin 6347 Stab Shadowing 90k
Fixed:
2x Blitzer 7348 Block 100k
2x Assassin 7348 Stab Shadowing 100k |
NO. The Assassin should only get a 10k boost from a 10k increase.
Assassin 7347 Stab Shadowing, makes sense. Or 6348, making the assassin an upgraded lino (which I think people will pick). don't just make the assassin awesome without disadvantages. |
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delusional
Joined: Jan 18, 2013
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| Posted:
Nov 28, 2018 - 01:12 |
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| mrt1212 wrote: | | PainState wrote: | IMO what makes assassin's to weak with stab is they cannot re-roll the stab AV Check. If they could re-roll the AV check then now you got something.
The entire discussion does revolve around the in ability to push targets back with stab and that they have AV7 and need to be in contact to stab and shadow which increases their mortality rate.
So back to the OP....the proper Assassin build is B/D/SS and doubles take Multi block.
Which presents another question. If you roll a 10 do you take the +MA for shadowing and general mobility OR take the +AV to get your assassin some real armor to help his mortality issues? |
I feel like the choice between MA and AV rests on the development curve of when they get it - earlier and I'd opt AV, later and I'd opt +MA. |
I think ... I HATE the cookie cutter player progression.
Seriously every character, not much deviation from B/D/G. Sure sometimes wressle or sidestep to mix it up.
My thoughts, the Assassin needs to be put in spaces where he can be very useful. For instance if the assassin is in a cage, someone breaks the cage and hits the ball carrier. Ok, lets have the assassin stab those players providing Guard. So that's a B/multiblock progression.
If your assassin is on the edge, you probably want them to stop people just walking past them. So B/T/SS makes sense.
I really can't see people picking them regularly. If they had a boost to shadowing (i.e. +2mv for shadowing purposes alone) I could see them regularly being picked. |
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ArrestedDevelopment
Joined: Sep 14, 2015
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Nov 28, 2018 - 01:58 |
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The assassin is useful at low tv where DE are usually quite starved for rerolls. As a result of this you're most likely to see him in NAF rosters, where creative coaches will use the stab to offset a positionally loaded roster with low rerolls (and leader on the runner).
Anyone suggesting he's a threat at high TV has probably managed to generate a multiskilled assassin who's skills manage to circumvent his weaknesses. It's that simple. |
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JellyBelly
Joined: Jul 08, 2009
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Nov 28, 2018 - 02:13 |
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If I was going to re-design the Dark Elf roster, I would look at buffing both the Assassin and the Runner to the point where they are worth taking and reduce the number of Blitzers from 4 to 2 to compensate (as other people have mentioned). It doesn't make sense that they can be built into such a competitive team whilst ignoring two of the positionals.
The Assassin obviously needs MA7 to make the Shadowing worthwhile, but I don't think it would hurt to buff Stab a bit as well, as it's pretty rare anyway and currently not that great.
Something I've thought about is allowing Stab to be used as a foul action, to 'foul' a standing player. It wouldn't get any assists and would come with the same sending off risk as regular fouling. Might be a bit too powerful though for cage breaking, if you could do a separate blitz in the same turn. Although, the success rate against high armour would be quite low. That might also make Sneaky Git worth taking on them as well  |
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mrt1212
Joined: Feb 26, 2013
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| Posted:
Nov 28, 2018 - 03:57 |
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| delusional wrote: | | mrt1212 wrote: | | PainState wrote: | IMO what makes assassin's to weak with stab is they cannot re-roll the stab AV Check. If they could re-roll the AV check then now you got something.
The entire discussion does revolve around the in ability to push targets back with stab and that they have AV7 and need to be in contact to stab and shadow which increases their mortality rate.
So back to the OP....the proper Assassin build is B/D/SS and doubles take Multi block.
Which presents another question. If you roll a 10 do you take the +MA for shadowing and general mobility OR take the +AV to get your assassin some real armor to help his mortality issues? |
I feel like the choice between MA and AV rests on the development curve of when they get it - earlier and I'd opt AV, later and I'd opt +MA. |
I think ... I HATE the cookie cutter player progression.
Seriously every character, not much deviation from B/D/G. Sure sometimes wressle or sidestep to mix it up.
My thoughts, the Assassin needs to be put in spaces where he can be very useful. For instance if the assassin is in a cage, someone breaks the cage and hits the ball carrier. Ok, lets have the assassin stab those players providing Guard. So that's a B/multiblock progression.
If your assassin is on the edge, you probably want them to stop people just walking past them. So B/T/SS makes sense.
I really can't see people picking them regularly. If they had a boost to shadowing (i.e. +2mv for shadowing purposes alone) I could see them regularly being picked. |
I know what you mean but it's an SOP for a reason. Part of why I don't like Dark Elves as much - I don't get to tinker with catcher types.
I think one of the fun things about elves is how each coach approaches them - some take a holistic view with tons of blodge and then slight augments here and there with a handful of rainmakers. Others go with specific role based builds - I need a player that can do this so I will build this. Stats and Dubs guide a lot of the decision making in what your players look like and how you approach the team but at a very top level, even that is guided by a net or spear fishing type elves.
Coca Loca BBL is very role based with positional and trying to be blodge heavy on mundane linos. I enjoy it at the moment. |
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Khaltan
Joined: Jun 22, 2011
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| Posted:
Nov 28, 2018 - 05:49 |
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| PainState wrote: | | Khaltan wrote: | | PainState wrote: | I will give you the very short version of my assassin thread from 3 years ago.
The chances to break a players AV with stab is always greater than blocking a player and breaking his armor. The math is the same from AV7 to av10. Stabbing always has a better chance to break AV than blocking and following it up with a AV break roll. |
That's only true in the absence of mighty blow. With mighty blow blocking is frequently more likely to break armour and even more frequnetly more likely to cause casualties or KOs. Admitably that's a doubles skill on elves, but it doesn't reaquire picking a AV7 character and og cause a knowckdown is still a lot better than nothing, which is what an assassin gets if his stab fails (though of cause the assassin cannot roll skulls). |
It is true even with MB. Chances to break AV on a single roll (stab) > Than a chance to break AV with or with out MB because you still have to roll block dice. SO, it is a block roll followed by a AV check roll.
Odds to break AV with stab. This is static and never changes.
AV7 41.667
AV8 27.77
AV9 16.667
Odds to knock down a Assassin who has block on 2dice and break AV.
23.148 with MB it goes up to 32.407
Odds to knock down a blodge assassin with 2block dice and you have no tackle and break AV.
12.731 and 17.824 with Mighty Blow. |
Not every player in the game has block (assassin for example aren't birn with it) the odds to break armour on AV 7 is 43,75% if they don't have block with Mighty blow so better than the assassin. Even with block Odd of breaking armous is better with 2 dice on av 9 at 18,5%. That's with the questiong being strongly biased in stabs favour by only considering armours break, but not considering cas chances, the value knocking down even if armour isn't broken, or the value of even just a push result.
Certainly there are cases where an assassin can be of use, but they're IMO marginal and you claim that stab is always better than block for breaking armour, even with it's pro-assassin bias simply isn't true. |
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Kondor
Joined: Apr 04, 2008
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Nov 28, 2018 - 06:40 |
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I just had a thought on how to make Assassins more attractive and useful without major changes. What if you gave him access to Strength skills on a normal skill roll?
It certainly would make him a unique player among elves and could easily be justified from a fluff point of view. (Constant physical training to have the advantage in any encounter.)
With this you would still have a Mv6, Av7 elf who is one of the most fragile players on his team but will likely be in the middle of any fight. I imagine skill progression as dodge/block/multi block/guard/stand firm/diving tackle. |
Last edited by Kondor on %b %28, %2018 - %06:%Nov; edited 1 time in total |
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Arktoris
Joined: Feb 16, 2004
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Nov 28, 2018 - 06:41 |
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not every player has block...and not every block is going to be 2 dice. Assassins are same STR as most players. So what happens when the block is only 1 die...what if the assassin has an1 assist and the blocker now has to do -2d? Also what are the odds of rolling a skull and causing a turnover.
What are the odds if assassin has blodge as well as it not being a 2d block? At some point, the opponent won't even try to block back...in which case, the odds of hurting the assassin are 0%.
the stabber...doesn't care about any of that. Chance of rolling av...100%...chance of hurting self and ending the rest of their turn...0%
every time….no exceptions. |
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fidius
Joined: Jun 17, 2011
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| Posted:
Nov 28, 2018 - 06:53 |
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| JellyBelly wrote: | | If I was going to re-design the Dark Elf roster, I would look at buffing both the Assassin and the Runner to the point where they are worth taking and reduce the number of Blitzers from 4 to 2 to compensate (as other people have mentioned). It doesn't make sense that they can be built into such a competitive team whilst ignoring two of the positionals. |
Assassins and Runners are vulnerable mainly because they are weaker targets relative to the other players. Also arguably because Tackle and Mighty Blow are very powerful vs AV7/Dodge.
Dark Elves currently have 6 blitzer-types, and frankly way too many positionals (I believe Mouse would call them "over-described"). With all positionals they hit 8x MV7 players. Bringing Assassins up to MV7 would mean 10x MV7. Now you're encroaching on Wood Elf/Skaven-type speed. I'd rather think of Darks as slower and bashier (dirtier too but that's hard to implement with only 2 fouling skills in the game). Anyway -- plenty of reasons to reduce Blitzers to 2 imo.
| JellyBelly wrote: | The Assassin obviously needs MA7 to make the Shadowing worthwhile, but I don't think it would hurt to buff Stab a bit as well, as it's pretty rare anyway and currently not that great.
Something I've thought about is allowing Stab to be used as a foul action, to 'foul' a standing player. It wouldn't get any assists and would come with the same sending off risk as regular fouling. Might be a bit too powerful though for cage breaking, if you could do a separate blitz in the same turn. Although, the success rate against high armour would be quite low. |
I agree that would be cool, and not that out of line as long as there's a downside. AV7 is a serious downside for a player who ends up in tacklezones every time he fails a Stab. |
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ClayInfinity
Joined: Aug 15, 2003
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Nov 28, 2018 - 12:29 |
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Given that Dark Elves aren't deemed uberly powerful at any TV band and are simply a solid team, what about the possibility that the roster, including the assassin, don't need tinkering with... maybe its good as it is.
Assassins are rare/niche players... suits the role play aspect in that assassins don't walk around in every day life in the Warhammer world like its a standard occupation... hence, on the pitch they're rare and unusual.
And if we tinker with the Assassin, then are we going to tinker with the Dwarf roster to make Deathrollers more popular? Same argument... do we have a Legend Deathroller? No... |
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Applulz
Joined: Nov 25, 2011
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| Posted:
Nov 28, 2018 - 14:44 |
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| ClayInfinity wrote: | Given that Dark Elves aren't deemed uberly powerful at any TV band and are simply a solid team, what about the possibility that the roster, including the assassin, don't need tinkering with... maybe its good as it is.
Assassins are rare/niche players... suits the role play aspect in that assassins don't walk around in every day life in the Warhammer world like its a standard occupation... hence, on the pitch they're rare and unusual.
And if we tinker with the Assassin, then are we going to tinker with the Dwarf roster to make Deathrollers more popular? Same argument... do we have a Legend Deathroller? No... |
I don't think there is really any way to buff stab without making it overpowered. Anyone who has played as an undead team vs. Zara knows what I am talking about. It is basically a chainsaw with no drawbacks.
I have the most success inducing assassins vs squishy teams rather than having one rostered. I play way too many av8/av9 teams to have one around full time.
I also disagree with taking block on the assassin, since he is so starved for SPP and will likely never get more than a few skills if you are playing vs lots of bash teams. I think dodge/leap makes him instantly more useful since block is basically just a pure defensive skill on him. |
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Harad
Joined: May 11, 2014
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| Posted:
Nov 28, 2018 - 14:55 |
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PainState
Joined: Apr 04, 2007
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Nov 28, 2018 - 16:04 |
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| Applulz wrote: |
I also disagree with taking block on the assassin, since he is so starved for SPP and will likely never get more than a few skills if you are playing vs lots of bash teams. I think dodge/leap makes him instantly more useful since block is basically just a pure defensive skill on him. |
The #1 issue with an assassin is that his two starter skills, Shadowing and Stab, come with the draw back that both those abilities/skills require you to start next to your foe. Inless you are fond with the blitz stab, which once again leaves you standing next to a foe if you should fail.
Block/Dodge is the best combo of skills in the game hands down. He gets them both on a normal roll and coupled with the idea that he needs to stand next to foes, he better have them.
Having a assassin standing around in the back ground with leap so he can threaten a cage with a leap stab attack seems a lot more ineffective than blodging him up with sidestep and take his chances against players with out tackle and hound them all game long by always standing next to them.
Block skill is the #1 most important skill in the game. With out block you give up to much an advantage on the block dice to your foe. 99% of players take block before tackle. So when talking about block dice and % to knock down you should almost always take block as your first skill.
**Elves can get away with taking dodge first at low TV and make sure they dodge away from players who have block on the other side.** |
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Khaltan
Joined: Jun 22, 2011
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| Posted:
Nov 28, 2018 - 16:47 |
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| Arktoris wrote: | not every player has block...and not every block is going to be 2 dice. Assassins are same STR as most players. So what happens when the block is only 1 die...what if the assassin has an1 assist and the blocker now has to do -2d? Also what are the odds of rolling a skull and causing a turnover.
What are the odds if assassin has blodge as well as it not being a 2d block? At some point, the opponent won't even try to block back...in which case, the odds of hurting the assassin are 0%.
the stabber...doesn't care about any of that. Chance of rolling av...100%...chance of hurting self and ending the rest of their turn...0%
every time….no exceptions. |
Not every block is 2d, but most are, If you're doing 1d block or -2d blocks are're probably doing it for a specific reson like wanting get an opposing player our of the way (2/3 or 5/6 chance even on a 1d block) or you're trying to get the ball from the ballcarrier (at least 1/2 with wrestle and tackle and up to 5/6 with strip ball on 1d ) all better chances than you'll get with an assassin even before concidering that blocks can be rerolled. Obviously the assassin starts to look better if you're forced to do a -2d block.
Still it's not even quite true that assassin has no failure/turnover risk. If you're contemplating a -2d block it's probably a ball carriers inside a cage. That mean you assassin will need to either dodge or leap into that cage, which can easilly fail. On the other hand a dedicated cage breaker will probably have ag 5 (odds of getting ag 5 on any Blotzer or WE, or in a pinch a lineman are very good, odds of getting it on the assassin specifically is very bad). That means they're less likely to cause a turnover on the leap into the cage, and because blitzers and WE have MO 7 they're less likely to need to GFI to reach the Ball carrier.
I'm not saying there are no situation where an assassin is useful, but it seems to me the advantages are far outmached by the disadvantages like the 50% increase on KOs, Stuns and casualties against the assassin compared to a lino or a blitzer and the higher prize tag compared to a lino. |
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Wuhan
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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Nov 28, 2018 - 19:07 |
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Assassins don't need to be legends to be powerful. Wrestle/Jump up/Dodge.
You have a scary player that will be targeted by the MB/Tackle Stormvermin, while you blitz Stab that agil 5 gutter.
Blitz stab that Str5 Block/Dodge/Guard/av9 Rotter in his cage. If you fail, just do it again until both your assassins are KO'd. When that fails, use the witches to peal off the cage for a gang foul.
Assassins make the best screen players. Block/Dodge/Shadowing and it's tough to get around them. They pull the blitz like an Offensive tackle pulls a Defensive end.
Assassins are not the best player, the witch is the MVP on a DE team. Assassins do the heavy lifting when they Blitz stab with 0 assists. If/when the stab fails, the player is marked by shadowing.
How would you build a legendary Assassin? +av,+av, Jump up, multi block, block/dodge? |
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