Lill-Leif
Joined: Nov 17, 2005
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 Posted:
May 01, 2019 - 21:21 |
 
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| Quote: | | ...the rules of the website are more hard on sweary language that they are on the pejorative use of gay. |
So, per the rules of Fumbbl, it is ok to express that this is a gay rule, but not that it is completely f*cked up?
As for normalized language: Normalization only occurs if society, including us, permits it. Write new rules damn it, and make it clear that this site is open for everyone who wants to play a good game of Fantasy Football. |
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Rags
Joined: Nov 09, 2008
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| Posted:
May 01, 2019 - 21:25 |
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| mrt1212 wrote: | | I think its important to consider that communication isnt a unilateral thing and how one comes across isnt simply "what I say makes sense to me and thats good enough. If other people get a different idea about who I am thats their problem." |
Amen brother |
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Wreckage
Joined: Aug 15, 2004
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| Posted:
May 01, 2019 - 21:35 |
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Bigotry means to show intolerance towards those that hold different beliefs than oneself.
Fully advocating to listen to others.
But after all is said, I don't think it's wise for a society to cater to the needs of those easily offended. Personally I find the rules for offending someone on this site way too harsh. Not that there shouldn't be boundaries. There should be. Where there is serious animosity and conflict.
As the original poster describes, the person discussed meant no harm by it. The adult response would be to say: Ok, no harm done, I'd like you to not do it again. Bye.
To make a forum post about it and to push some sort of political agenda to get people to conform to ones own beliefs is kinda... lets say this world really sucks.
Anyways have fun on the next 10 pages. Bye. |
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harvestmouse
Joined: May 13, 2007
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| Posted:
May 01, 2019 - 21:38 |
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Ok, I'm going to respond to this. It's going to be very difficult for me to portray my exact thoughts, without making one point standout. My opinion here is not going to be popular. I may even lose the respect of people I respect. If I do please reread point 2 again. However here goes.
1. I was an admin here for some time. How you portray the situation doesn't sound very FUMBBLY. I am not saying you are wrong, but how I would have handled it (under how I was told to handle it) you would be.
The other coach would have certainly been in trouble, as you would have. However under no circumstances would you be allowed to know this. Any punishment delivered to another coach is not your business. From my experience Christer wouldn't allow you to know this. You did wrong, this how you correct your behaviour.
2. And maybe the most important point. As a human being I have softened a lot over the last few years. I am now forty and I am changing. Some people here (certainly of the past) didn't/don't like me for my confrontational manners. If I think something is wrong, I speak my mind. I do this much less now. I feel I understand the importance of upsetting people and the effect you have on people more.
I would like more people to feel and understand this. How upsetting somebody online could have a massive effect on person and their real life.
Upsetting people like this is not ok. It's also unnecessary. Please try to think of others, and the affect it has on them. I will be honest, I do not understand the hurt comments like this cause. However what would have been quite flippant from the person throwing the comment out, clearly has had a hurtful effect on the receiver. In my past I certainly would have said something similar (when it was ok) and I am quite happy to remove it from my lexis due to the effects of what that word could do to a person.
3. Now here is where I become unpopular. I am sick and tired of the what I feel is insidious equal rights agenda that is changing the world.
In reality I feel (and I admit I am naive) how such a word could really upset a person. I turn on BBC sport everyday to read..........racist chants in the stands.................women should get equal money...............disabled rights aren't being encountered for. And I am sick to my ****ing hind teeth of it. It's a subtle movement changing the world and how the world thinks. Which isn't how we naturally think.
You shout at a player for being overweight, short, red haired, NO HAIR well that's fine. but genda, sexuality, colour nononono. That's not ok.
Does being called the'N' word really have more of an effect on a person than being called bald? I can say bald here, but I can't say the N word. Insulters look for what is different and with you to be insulting. Bald can be beautiful, but yes it is different. I have to say the same with ethnic differences. There are differences and there are less black people than white in Europe (no idea about America) and that's why people use it as an insult. Hmmm this is difficult...to portray my feelings, as I do feel a lot of empathy for racism. I mainly live and work in Japan, where I see it daily.
In my past I have experienced bullying due to one thing or another. As a kid and maybe an adult I have bullied too. It isn't right. The affect on people is different. However you can remove yourself from it, in a place like this. Meditate it out and move on. Insults are insults, there meant to hurt. It's not the words, it is the feeling behind the words. It's not that you are black, female, LGBT or impaired. That doesn't matter, it's a way to bully. Any form of bullying isn't acceptable, but you need to rise above it.
However people claiming 'bigotry' really need a reality check. How hurt are you by bigotry......really? How hurt would you have been if you lived 50 years ago? How hurt are you compared to Jan Molby an ex Liverpool football player who had the chants 'He's fat, he's round he bounces on the ground ...Jan Molby...Jan Molby'. That's ok?
Yet the Man U Romelu Lukaku chant about the size of his 'whatsit' isn't ok. Because it's stereotyping black people. Or Spurs calling themselves and offensive Jew word....The world has gone mad with bigotry.
Another thing I felt strongly about and never said a word, due to fear of being called a bigot is the (what I feel) BS behaviour around Amazon figures.
'Oh that's sexist'. 'Real women don't look like that or would wear clothes like that on a football field'. 'Those boobs offend me'. Really? You really feel offended by over the top glamorous figurines? For me totally ridiculous. Fantasy is fantasy and your imagination should be the limit. Not what you feel happy with due to modern day interpretation of stigma. Grown men feeling unhappy with the portrayal of women through a figurine.......makes me want to ****ing scream. For me, how modern society (particularly in the last few years) is looking at these issues is not right. If it genuinely is affecting people (over overweight people being abused) then yes; cut it out. My hunch though is modern way of thinking is what really makes comments like this unacceptable and hurtful.
4. You have to consider the point of where this individual comes from. Most countries haven't gone absolutely crazy over equal right issues like the UK, Australia or the USA. You can see this from the abuse black football players are taking in certain countries in mainland Europe.
If anything they're fighting back for their right to be abusive in which way or form they wish to portray. In a lot of situations they don't understand why this form of abuse is not ok, but another form of abuse is ok.
I don't understand why one form of abuse is ok and one is not. Are the majority of people gay? No they are not. Thus it's used as a way to be abusive. Also the way gay people portray themselves has changed massively. Before a lot of (and I cannot find better words to say this) 'straight acting gays' would stay in the closet, due to abuse they would take. So the outrageously gay, became the stereotype and what the abuser his is portraying. hmmmmm this is very difficult, for me to portray my thoughts. However I will try to condense it.
TLDR
I doubt this is the situation, knowing FUMBBL. Christer generally doesn't allow others to know the punishments dished out.
Abuse of any kind that is hurtful isn't tolerable.
Is this kind of abuse really hurtful? Or is this how we are being taught to think? I find it hard to believe that comments like this are genuinely hurtful over being a definitive nono due to modern thinking.
Now if my thoughts genuinely hurt you. I am sorry for that. And the fact you find them hurtful is the number 1 priority. Because the affects on me are pretty minor and far less than the affects on you. |
Last edited by harvestmouse on %b %01, %2019 - %22:%May; edited 1 time in total |
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Christer
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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Since this was brought to the forums, let me give you some facts:
1. There were 8 instances of language that was against the terms on the site. 1 was a single word from the opponent, 7 were over the top offensiveness directed from the OP to the opponent.
2. The opponent apologized 5 times during the chat.
3. The OP refused to complete the match (again, another thing that's not kosher in terms of the site rules).
The thing here is that coming to me with a complaint about someone saying offensive things to you and showing me a log that's filled with offensive nonsense from your side is pretty pointless. You may be incredibly offended by someone saying the word "gay" (and that was the single only word said that triggered this). I am pretty sure most people would be offended by a long tirade with f-bombs, allegations of homophobia, being called a spineless bigot and being likened to racist a-holes.
If you're someone who feels it's acceptable to dish out that kind of nonsense, don't come crying to me about how other people express themselves.
This thing is completely blown out of proportion, and you're accusing your opponent of escalating the matter. Your direct response to a tactless expression was an absolutely incredible escalation. Continuing to pursue this through a lengthy PM conversation with me and then bringing it to the forum misrepresenting what I stated is even more of an escalation.
What I stated was that I can't really approach someone about one single word when it was followed by such an offensive tirade that's absolutely against the language policy of the site. As for the comment about normalization, what I said was the following:
"As sad as it might be, the expression is more or less normalized in today's society and this site isn't really the platform for being overly aggressive with trying to denormalize things. You won't resolve the larger problem on a site like this."
And then continuing with a more sane way of responding to something like this:
"The correct response in a situation like that would be to express that you don't appreciate normalization of that word in a derogatory fashion and leave it at that. Bringing up four letter words and accusing someone of being a homophobe is not a great way to make a change overall."
To summarize, this one word from your opponent has resulted in 30 paragraphs from you (Ticket, PM conversation and the first post in this thread). Are we done yet? |
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ivan-hr
Joined: Apr 17, 2010
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| Posted:
May 01, 2019 - 21:48 |
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| Arktoris wrote: | welcome to my world.
signed,
every white, male, Catholic, and Trump supporter |
I am not from the US and I do not live in your country, so I cant speak about the people who voted for your President. But I do not like that you speak in my name as a Catholic. Especially if your sentence tries to portray all Catholic as homophobes. |
Last edited by ivan-hr on %b %01, %2019 - %22:%May; edited 1 time in total |
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ramchop
Joined: Oct 12, 2013
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Dice rape. I have used this term in the past. And I received a polite pm about it. Explaining that there are some people on the site who will have been abused, and the use of the term could be damaging. There was a polite request that I think about it. There was no demand for an apology. There was no escalation to admin. I felt I'd been educated and I don't use the term anymore.
The example of the OP was a careless "gay". It was right to point it out at the time. However, the complainant admittedly responded "angrily and in a sweary fashion", and the opponent reacted by baiting him. It was not a pleasant exchange to read. I think the approach to this event then and now is flawed.
In my view "hate speech" (a term used in the support ticket) is an extremely charged term. For me it implies a deliberate intent to harm. I think this "gay" was simple ignorance. |
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mrt1212
Joined: Feb 26, 2013
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| Posted:
May 01, 2019 - 21:57 |
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| Wreckage wrote: | Bigotry means to show intolerance towards those that hold different beliefs than oneself.
Fully advocating to listen to others.
But after all is said, I don't think it's wise for a society to cater to the needs of those easily offended. Personally I find the rules for offending someone on this site way too harsh. Not that there shouldn't be boundaries. There should be. Where there is serious animosity and conflict.
As the original poster describes, the person discussed meant no harm by it. The adult response would be to say: Ok, no harm done, I'd like you to not do it again. Bye.
To make a forum post about it and to push some sort of political agenda to get people to conform to ones own beliefs is kinda... lets say this world really sucks.
Anyways have fun on the next 10 pages. Bye. |
It isnt about people being easily offended, full stop. When something is so endemic and systemic and pervasive to the extent that sexuality and gender are within gaming, there is no 'easily offended'. Its a question if you will raise an objection this time when you see it. Over and over again.
I dont think you can even begin to appreciate how often those being targeted by absent mindedness at best, bite their tongue because of the fear of sticking out. What you imagine is one person overly offended in one instance is one person picking their battles tactically and piping up for themselves and others 1 out 36 times.
It is a hard leap to make, but if someone says something is hurtful to them, I am not going to out of hand dismiss it and say toughen up. Time and time again in all facets of society, only the heterodox must toughen up while the orthodox get more and more fragile about how they needlessly target people who dont need any more targets. |
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Thoriin
Joined: Apr 15, 2011
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| Posted:
May 01, 2019 - 22:00 |
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| Zed wrote: | I'm a big swearer myself and i have to say i use the word "gay" (for lack of imagination i guess) more often than most people, in the "weak" sense with no "homophobic" intent.
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I don't understand what you mean by weak sense of gay ? |
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koadah
Joined: Mar 30, 2005
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| Posted:
May 01, 2019 - 22:13 |
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| Christer wrote: |
What I stated was that I can't really approach someone about one single word when it was followed by such an offensive tirade that's absolutely against the language policy of the site. As for the comment about normalization, what I said was the following:
"As sad as it might be, the expression is more or less normalized in today's society and this site isn't really the platform for being overly aggressive with trying to denormalize things. You won't resolve the larger problem on a site like this."
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Thing is Christer, I don't remember seeing the word used in this way, on this site for quite some time. So, it doesn't seem very "normalised" to me. At least not here.
I don't really see why you "can't really approach someone about one single word" because the OP went nuts. The single word and how it was used was the provocation that kicked them off.
What you say or do is up to you. But they can definitely be "approached". If you have done it and the OP just isn't satisfied, then fair enough. But they can be approached.
It is nice to have a place to play without having to put up with a heap of bullshit. |
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O[L]C 2016 Swiss! - April ---- All Star Bowl - Teams of Stars - 2 more teams needed |
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garyt1
Joined: Mar 12, 2011
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| Posted:
May 01, 2019 - 22:14 |
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I think in this case extremegrazedknee did a good thing to bring up the issue to the forums. It is good for people to be aware, if they are not already, that using gay as a negative is an insult.
However obviously as he was repeatedly swearing against the user of the word then he shouldn't be surprised if he himself got some punishment. Especially if the other guy apologized.
Hopefully we can keep (and improve) a respecting community! |
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“A wise man can learn more from a foolish question than a fool can learn from a wise answer.” |
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koadah
Joined: Mar 30, 2005
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| Posted:
May 01, 2019 - 22:18 |
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mrt1212
Joined: Feb 26, 2013
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| Posted:
May 01, 2019 - 22:20 |
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Did EKG go HAM and pursue this poorly? Yes.
Is the subject of how to deal with people who mindlessly fall into marginalizing other people they aren't off the table because of it? Absolutely not. |
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Throweck
Joined: Feb 23, 2013
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| Posted:
May 01, 2019 - 22:26 |
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Gay was wrong to be used - correct
OP could have dealt with it better - correct
Presumption that Christer hasn't dealt with the opponent - incorrect
Just like harvestmouse said...just because you don't know it's happened, doesn't mean it hasn't happened.
I think a forum about what we think is acceptable as a community is a great idea. Off the back of this incident, not so much. It could have been done in such a better way as, unfortunately, the OP has not given the correct account of the pm with Christer, etc. |
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Michidisperso
Joined: Nov 20, 2015
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| Posted:
May 01, 2019 - 22:32 |
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For the specifica case: amen to Christer, i think he is in the position to clarifay his decision.
For the general: come on, let's stop use gay as insult.. it's not that difficult. Hopefully we'll create some brand-new words to use to put out frustration |
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