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Joined: May 20, 2017

Post   Posted: Dec 17, 2019 - 11:40 Reply with quote Back to top

Hey all I am looking for some advice on how to bash against stronger teams when you have a skills advantage. I expect this to be right up a dwarf player's tunnel (~~~Summon PC~~~). I played this game (https://fumbbl.com/p/match?id=4109233) recently and in it I had the mindset that I was the weaker team so I was disadvantaged in a fight. But on reflection I had far more fighting skills.
Average Strength (starting 11): Orc=33 Lizards=37
Block count: Orc=7 Lizards=2
Guard count: Orc=4 Lizards=1

However I don't know how to utilise these advantages. I realise that I need to keep tighter formations for guard to work as it does nothing in 1v1 fights. But I don't know what formations don't just get my guard blitzed away, should I initiate contact, how much contact to initiate, etc. What works for you? What formations/tactics do you use to either hold ground or try to gain ground?

Your words of wisdom are much appreciated!

Opposite of tl;dr
I'm comfortable with a dash play style (I love playing humans, and keep hoping the BB scheduler will select my team again [though it has made it clear that it never will]). I'm very happy to blitz some player free, assist elsewhere and screen, etc. But in this matchup I don't have the speed advantage, so I can't gain ground with side to side movement, thus more fighting is called for as I have to make some space through the Lizards (I think). This is what I imagine dwarves have to do.
The Orc team is my experiment to replace black orcs with gobbos. (Lose a move AND an agility for just a single strength, and you want me to PAY 30k for that?! If that is a good deal, someone needs to tell gutter runners - I'm learning Razz about the value of 'specialised positionals' ). I'm not looking to change the team make up. And this question could equally apply to another of my teams (https://fumbbl.com/p/team?team_id=946591) which looks to answer the question, 'what if I miss interpret the rule of 5 to instead mean you can take 5 AV7 players?'. Here the chworfs provide skills but no movement!
Should you watch the game (there is no need to), you can skip the first half. I underestimated the Lizards' speed, didn't field deep fullbacks, and they shot a gap and caged up beautifully for the lowest risk TD since Pelves vs snotlings.

P.S. Yes I did search for threads on this topic, but they tend to be about agility vs bash teams, or from before I was born when I have no idea what the rules were (seriously, the Dwarf roster guide on fumbbl seems to think stand firm is a doubles skill).

Joined: Sep 14, 2015

Post   Posted: Dec 17, 2019 - 12:14 Reply with quote Back to top

Liz vs Orc at low tv tends to be won most easily by the side that removes or nullifies the other's st4 first, allowing the other players to influence the game. You turned up with 0 st4.

Chorfs have a similar issue until guard is spread - they are simply ST bullied 1v1 or even put into positions where 2v1 is unhelpful. In addition, by reducing blocker count on them, you have reduced your ability to reroll drain higher ST but low RR teams.

Basically, your roster is making an already tricky (or difficult matchup in the case of chorfs) even harder. It's quite hard to tell you what to do when your pre-game choices have minimized your equity in the match.


Joined: Mar 17, 2014

Post   Posted: Dec 17, 2019 - 12:28 Reply with quote Back to top

What AD said. No Black Orcs make the team considerably weaker. Perhaps you chose this for background story reasons, which of course is totally fine. In that case, when defending I would focus all my tacklers on the skinks, to drain rr. ANd all the Guards somewhere near the weaker side, and start beating up players that are not assisted to hopefully remove some. While doing that I would always keep a reasonably doable path for my blitzers to his (likely) skink carrier just to avoid him loading up on what was his weaker side. He can't do that if you stay in reach of the carrier. You're still at a disadvantage but it might put enough pressure to force an ealry score. When receiving I think you're in real trouble, but maybe spread a few gobbo's to either create outlets for the ball or spit his team as they chase the gobs around. Stalling until T8 will be difficult though.

Joined: Aug 19, 2009

Post   Posted: Dec 17, 2019 - 12:50 Reply with quote Back to top

Muff2n wrote:

(seriously, the Dwarf roster guide on fumbbl seems to think stand firm is a doubles skill).

It used to be in lrb4, in an older ruleset. It also used to work differently. Any guide from 2016 and on should be fine.


Joined: May 20, 2017

Post   Posted: Dec 17, 2019 - 13:29 Reply with quote Back to top

Well at least good to know that the higher str does do the bullying, and perhaps I should curb my expectations of going toe to toe.

Thanks. I will try to concentrate my guard players together, rather than sprinkling them about.

Thanks. And to be clear I am tongue in cheek about the guides being dated. I appreciate that this site does a lot.

Joined: Oct 25, 2003

Post   Posted: Dec 17, 2019 - 17:09
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Basically, as everyone else has said, you are saying 'i wont use hammers' and then asking us how to bang a nail into some wood.

The CD build is too horrible to help with. If you want to cut to 6 av9 and rest hobgobs, then 6 CDB is the way to do it. But don't, its a horrible build.

The Orc team build can work on NAF, with a star in place of the BOB's, but I cannot see a future for it in a perpetual league, you will never have the str to compete with str based rosters and are not agile enough or fast enough to 'elf it'. At very low TV it can be effective by clogging the field with cheap trash and marking better pieces out of the game while your TV very effective blitzers get it done. But once you pass the initial stage where teams are very under-skilled, and you have, opposition coaches will have enough tools at their disposal to continually overpower, outflank, out bash, out position you, and smack the gobbos up for easy numbers advantage.

so my advice is call this experiment over and learn proper effective TV building if winning is your thing, or build fluffy style teams but focus less on win/loss if that turns you on. Both here do not seem likely.


More specifically that exact game was very winnable (dice permitting). Not easily winnable, but your build had a shot there:

The lizzards had few skills and sucking their rerolls was a viable strategy, especially with so many lineorcs and many with block, drop one on each lizzard, goblins (4 is 3 too many) can also effectively tie up block free sauruses as its still 2 die and dodge helps. The troll sits on the Krox. this should leave a blitzer or two free to go for the skinks and use the skills you have instead of a good team. you will still need to dodge the blitzers some most likely, but hit skinks, not lizzards, and make him work for every saurus moving. trust to av9 and hope he rolls the 1 in 9 every turn earlyish.

On offence you need to stay mobile and again limit his mobility, cages are probably less important as you are so weak even with guard he can overpower it. save all rerolls for dodges as he will get some base to base most likely and still hit skinks at every opportunity.

Barbarus hic ego sum quia non intelligor ulli
I am a barbarian here because i am not understood by anyone

Joined: Feb 26, 2011

Post   Posted: Dec 17, 2019 - 17:21 Reply with quote Back to top

Orcs without BOBs are quite playable in a TV-driven environment, if you know what you're doing. I went 21-2-7 with them just messing around in Ranked (not picking too hard), mostly on the strength of a lucky Blitzer before I decided to try to build the team around him, hired some BOBs, played 3 matches, and never picked it back up. BOBs are poor values at rookie level, but they get better with age. But this is not for new coaches: I have a lot of experience with lino-only teams and this squad is similar. Chaos Dwarfs at least have 6 Block/Tackle/S-access with limited access to Claw (it only takes 2 or 3 to be a heavy hitter who can't get a game), and 2 ST4, plus MA6 guys who aren't your best hitters, handle the ball ok, and can be cheap foulers.

Lizardmen are a tough matchup for a ST3 bash team, unless you have a little luck and ideally a Dirty Player and some Guard to go along with at least a couple Tackle. Dauntless is a good second skill. The secret to beating Lizards with ST3 bash is to receive first, and force them to put up a big line, giving you easy fouling targets. You have to nail two Saurus/Krox in the first half to have a good chance, unless you can take out literally all of the Skinks, or your crazy mojo goes off and you can out-ball them, which given their high MA isn't the way to bet.

Focus not on things you can't control, like bad dice. Focus instead on things under your power, like how far you flip the table.

Joined: Jul 10, 2005

Post   Posted: Dec 17, 2019 - 17:52 Reply with quote Back to top

Maybe you are interested in the opinion of your opponent. You had some bad luck with your foul rolls during half 1, with 2 goblins leaving the game without any effect. Since I had only 11 players, fouling was absolutely the right decision.

During my first offense, you used 3 player on the 'wrong' side of the pitch to block the single saurus there. That allowed me to stall until turn 8 without any trouble.

During your offense in half 2, I feel like there was no need to score with 2 turns still on the clock for me. I probably could have managed a 1 die blitz with a skink against your goblin ballcarrier, but even if I had gotten the ball loose, your orcs linemen/blitzer are quite proficient at picking the ball up. A later score would have been a draw, at least.

Joined: May 20, 2017

Post   Posted: Dec 17, 2019 - 18:32 Reply with quote Back to top

Thanks. It is good to know your opinion that I'm asking for too much from Str 3 bash. The teams are a deliberate learning exercise for me - I will try my best to win with the tools I've given myself, and hopefully learn about the value of the pieces I'm missing. Marking non-block saurus with gobbos is a good tip.

Interesting points. I had not thought about fouling Saurus, I was focused on getting skinks.

gg! This game was a good learning experience for me. Yes those 3 players vs one saurus was a real bonehead moment (plus I miss counted the strength and it was only one dice!). I scored in my turn 7 because I was worried that I had pinned down your lizards for as long as I could and they were about to come and smother me. So funny that you didn't feel like you could apply much pressure. I'll review the replay and pause turn 7 to see why I was scared. I also under estimated your two turn scoring ability.

Joined: Jan 14, 2009

Post   Posted: Dec 17, 2019 - 18:53 Reply with quote Back to top

Muff2n wrote:

The Orc team is my experiment to replace black orcs with gobbos. (Lose a move AND an agility for just a single strength, and you want me to PAY 30k for that?!

I was a bit confused by this. In the player exchange between goblin and black orc you gain 2 movement, lose 2 strength, lose 2 AV, gain dodge and agility skill access but lose general and strength skill access. Not a trade-off that benefits the goblins

If the trade-off was so good, I think we'd see a lot more no saurus skink teams than we do. Trust me, not an effective build Very Happy

Generally I'm a fan of fun builds like this, as it can keep your coaching skills sharp as you will certainly be playing against better teams a lot. But as other coaches have said, you are really putting yourself at a disadvantage without the Black Orcs.

Advice is this: have fun, build the team to overcome their (self-imposed) limitations, and don't expect too much.

Oh, maybe a bit of real advice - if you are going to play this roster I think the thrower would be a good add. You won't be able to bash your way to the endzone like a traditional orc team, so passing becomes an option. cheers!

Joined: Feb 26, 2011

Post   Posted: Dec 17, 2019 - 21:12 Reply with quote Back to top

Orc team Goblins are good for one thing, and you can't do it in R or B (FUMBBL house rules re: "Journeyman abuse").

Start your roster with 4 Blitzers, 4 Blockers, 3 Goblins, and 4 Re-Rolls. Put the Goblins on LOS in game 1, then fire them and have 3 Journeyman Linemen.

Focus not on things you can't control, like bad dice. Focus instead on things under your power, like how far you flip the table.

Joined: Mar 17, 2014

Post   Posted: Dec 17, 2019 - 21:40 Reply with quote Back to top

It sounds interesting, but I'm not sure I understand the value of that exercise. if it is so that you can get an extra reroll, does having three loners without skills not counter that?

Joined: Dec 08, 2009

Post   Posted: Dec 17, 2019 - 21:52 Reply with quote Back to top

That seems like a very stunted orc roster without BoB, one of the real strengths of the roster.

Joined: Nov 16, 2003

Post   Posted: Dec 17, 2019 - 23:09 Reply with quote Back to top

I would suggest to bash the skinks with your block players. However facing saurus you need to hit them and without the Bobs that is really tough.

Look at the benefits of your team. Lots of people above dont see much of value, so sorry to say I think your better off starting a new team with Bobs. They are core to the side with the blitzers. In fact I would suggest 4bz 4bobs IS THE TEAM.

Joined: May 20, 2017

Post   Posted: Dec 17, 2019 - 23:43 Reply with quote Back to top

I was comparing to orc linemen! I don't endorse goblins as good players, though they do make good fouling, and assisting players. As they will up, the bobs improve faster than the linemen, but as rookies the lineman is decent imo.

To everyone else, I do have a'proper'orc team with all the blitzers and bobs, and I've done well with it. This isn't really about the team, which I'm playing for the lulz. I'm interested in general strategies for getting the most out of your guard and block players, especially when the opponent has more strength. So far a suggestion has been to mass the guard together, and that did seem to help in my last game Vs orcs with actual bobs. With only a guard here and there they were knocked away, but with 3 guard together that made them secure. Any more advice like that? E.g. do you place them side by side or corner to corner? Should the guard players be on the flanks or in the centre? I think centre where they are harder to blitz away but I'm not certain.

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