SeriliKirico
Joined: Sep 13, 2017
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 Posted:
Feb 08, 2024 - 18:08 |
 
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| JackassRampant wrote: | | Maybe that's an argument for moving BH back to 1-8. The blocking game just doesn't have enough bells and whistles, IMO. I try to resolve this by improving the Apothecary. |
Any CAS is still a removal, so it won't change that much in that regard. Adding any kind of armor reroll will speed up removals, and it's not clear what will it solve. Are there any evidence that lower effectiveness of kill stack creating some issues? A lot of people consider it a good change exactly because less removals happen during the match. What is downsides, why do we need more? Afaicr numbers don't show that bash teams now can't compete with others, quite the contrary. |
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JackassRampant
Joined: Feb 26, 2011
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| Posted:
Feb 08, 2024 - 18:12 |
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Well, you get 1 blitz per turn, 3+ blocks vs 3 players per drive, and whatever else the other side lets you have. That "whatever else" is wherein the bashing game meets coaching skill, and without that, mad removal takes big luck. |
_________________
Lude enixe, obliviscatur timor. |
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SeriliKirico
Joined: Sep 13, 2017
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| Posted:
Feb 08, 2024 - 18:14 |
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| MattDakka wrote: | When a bash team outnumbers an agile team (very often) the cage is not risky. Bash teams tend to have high Strength players, Guards and high AV. It's very common that a bash team cages close to opponent's End Zone and then waits until turn 8 comes.
It's not a rare issue, it's a very common situation.
It's so common that I stopped defending with my Elves, because it's futile. |
Still can't get how does it constitute an issue. Aren't elves are geared up for quickly scoring back after allowing their oppo to score? So pushing them to score quickly is kinda their thing, isn't it? I've been watching a few of your plays today, and you seem doing pretty good as it is. Best elving I've seen in years, hands down, very much obnoxious  |
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JackassRampant
Joined: Feb 26, 2011
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| Posted:
Feb 08, 2024 - 18:18 |
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| SeriliKirico wrote: | | JackassRampant wrote: | | Maybe that's an argument for moving BH back to 1-8. The blocking game just doesn't have enough bells and whistles, IMO. I try to resolve this by improving the Apothecary. |
Any CAS is still a removal, so it won't change that much in that regard. Adding any kind of armor reroll will speed up removals, and it's not clear what will it solve. Are there any evidence that lower effectiveness of kill stack creating some issues? A lot of people consider it a good change exactly because less removals happen during the match. What is downsides, why do we need more? Afaicr numbers don't show that bash teams now can't compete with others, quite the contrary. |
I was hoping not to have to say the quiet part out loud.
The new PO is not a good skill. Going prone with your killer for unmodified AV is almost always a sucker's play. The same thing on Injury is less bad, but hardly a reliable way to increase your damage. But it's the kind of crappy that encourages some coaches on both sides of the action, and it leaves that creepy feeling in the pit of your stomach. Also, the presence of a Piling On skill, even a bad one, adds value to Jump Up, Grab, Brawler, Juggernaut, Strip Ball, and Fend. |
_________________
Lude enixe, obliviscatur timor.
Last edited by JackassRampant on %b %08, %2024 - %18:%Feb; edited 1 time in total |
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MattDakka
Joined: Oct 09, 2007
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| Posted:
Feb 08, 2024 - 18:20 |
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Elves are supposed to stall as long as they can. If they score fast they give extra LOS blocks to the bash teams and make the equalizing score easier for the bash team.
About pushing the bash team to score: if they try to push the bash team to score they tend to be butchered and they can't field 11 players on their offensive drive, thus making their stalling riskier.
The issue is that a game where a bash team is safely stalling with a cage is not that interesting and not that tactical either, I can't stop it but at least I can skip turns to reduce the duration of this boring part of the game.
It can be tactical if the opponent team can actually siege the cage and pressure the ball carrier, but it's hard to do it when outnumbered and tends to lead to be even more outnumbered, for no result.
In old ruleset cage leaps to blitz the ball carrier were a thing, it's not like that anymore (if only Defensive worked every turn, not just on the opponent's turn!).
Blitz! event has been nerfed too, in old ruleset trying to attack the ball carrier before the cage was formed was another possibility. |
Last edited by MattDakka on %b %08, %2024 - %18:%Feb; edited 2 times in total |
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SeriliKirico
Joined: Sep 13, 2017
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| Posted:
Feb 08, 2024 - 18:23 |
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| JackassRampant wrote: | | Well, you get 1 blitz per turn, 3+ blocks vs 3 players per drive, and whatever else the other side lets you have. That "whatever else" is wherein the bashing game meets coaching skill, and without that, mad removal takes big luck. |
That's.. very debatable. One thing I noticed while playing in Cyanide ladder for a while is that people play kinda aggressive there. If it's a tier-1 bash team, and you play anything else than that, you won't have much say in how much block you want to give them. They tend to base a lot of your players, using their better skills and higher ST, forcing you to burn reroll on dodging out or throwing 1d or uphill blocks.
The thing is BB2020 already favors bashing play a lot, nerfing hybrid and agile teams. So I just can't see adding PO, number one removal skill, back into play as "solution" to anything. |
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JackassRampant
Joined: Feb 26, 2011
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| Posted:
Feb 08, 2024 - 18:28 |
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It's not the number one if you don't allow mods. I can post the math if you want. Also, failed PO makes dodging easier, as most non-dorfy teams concentrate Tackle on their hitters, who are the same guys who go prone. Also also, good positioning really really mitigates aggressive bash. |
_________________
Lude enixe, obliviscatur timor. |
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SeriliKirico
Joined: Sep 13, 2017
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| Posted:
Feb 08, 2024 - 18:30 |
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| MattDakka wrote: |
In old ruleset cage leaps to blitz the ball carrier were a thing, it's not like that anymore (if only Defensive worked every turn, not just on the opponent's turn!).
Blitz! event has been nerfed too, in old ruleset trying to attack the ball carrier before the cage was formed was another possibility. |
I agree here - but then again, the problem here is not stalling as is, but balance tilted way to the side of bashing play and bashing teams in BB2020, as agile and hybrid teams' play was nerfed. So if anything needs to be fixed, that is Wildly Inaccurate nonsense, and nerfs to AGI teams rosters, skills and some events they relied upon before. |
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JackassRampant
Joined: Feb 26, 2011
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Feb 08, 2024 - 18:33 |
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Hmmm, what about this as a fix for Leap? Halve all Tackle Zone penalties, rounding against the Leaper. 1-2 zones -1, 3-4 would be -2, 5-6 would be -3.... |
_________________
Lude enixe, obliviscatur timor. |
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SeriliKirico
Joined: Sep 13, 2017
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| Posted:
Feb 08, 2024 - 18:35 |
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| JackassRampant wrote: | | Also also, good positioning really really mitigates aggressive bash. |
When I hear that, I always ask to provide a few replays which show how it works. Not just where somebody grossly outplayed their less experienced opponent, or grossly out-lucked them - but two competent coaches, one of which was able to deflect aggressive advance of a team with better skills and higher ST while playing a non-bash team - by just using some kind of good positioning. Full disclosure: I haven't seem much examples of such plays so far, they remain a theory. |
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JackassRampant
Joined: Feb 26, 2011
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Feb 08, 2024 - 18:38 |
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Sure. That's labor, but I can dig some up pretty easily. The bash lies in the coach more than in the team. |
_________________
Lude enixe, obliviscatur timor. |
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MattDakka
Joined: Oct 09, 2007
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Feb 08, 2024 - 18:49 |
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| JackassRampant wrote: | | Hmmm, what about this as a fix for Leap? Halve all Tackle Zone penalties, rounding against the Leaper. 1-2 zones -1, 3-4 would be -2, 5-6 would be -3.... |
Currently Leap is:
D6 roll - Tackle Zones +1 Leap >= Leaping player's AG.
A little buff could be this:
D6 roll - Tackle Zones +2 Leap >= Leaping player's AG.
i.e. increase the Leap modifier from +1 to +2.
Leaping into 3 tackle zones (the typical cage) would require a 3+ instead of a 4+.
It's the same roll required by old Leap. Better than the 4+ required now, but still affected by modifiers, so, not OP. |
Last edited by MattDakka on %b %08, %2024 - %19:%Feb; edited 4 times in total |
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SeriliKirico
Joined: Sep 13, 2017
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| Posted:
Feb 08, 2024 - 18:50 |
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| JackassRampant wrote: | | Hmmm, what about this as a fix for Leap? Halve all Tackle Zone penalties, rounding against the Leaper. 1-2 zones -1, 3-4 would be -2, 5-6 would be -3.... |
That would be slightly better, but no such small fix alone heal the damage done, as it was a death by thousands cuts. All agi team players got worse, while maintaining their old costs, due to nerfs done to passing; so your team is now mechanically worse AND still kind of expensive. They even made few positionals worse by taking skills from them (removed Sprint from w.elves' catcher). It doesn't even work to support their discourse on "making throwers unique and endorse the passing game" - a complete joke. Even the best throwers are still susceptible to WI OOTB, so they are even less reliable then before on throws longer than 4 squares (7 squares with one more skill).
At the same time they added and changed bunch of other skills that, though seem to benefit all sides, are more beneficial to bash teams, after all. Like, making Guard to help with fouls, and allowing a relatively easy access to any skill family (so dwarves can easily get Guard and Sneaky Git now..), or Defensive (which, though it belongs to Agility family, gives enourmous benefits to high-ST teams, Guard + Defensive combo on your big guy is pretty much default now). |
Last edited by SeriliKirico on %b %08, %2024 - %18:%Feb; edited 3 times in total |
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JackassRampant
Joined: Feb 26, 2011
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| Posted:
Feb 08, 2024 - 18:52 |
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JackassRampant
Joined: Feb 26, 2011
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| Posted:
Feb 08, 2024 - 19:04 |
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@Serili: please consider my changes holistically. I buffed all 4 elf rosters pretty hard, and my WI is a lot less likely unless Disturbing Presence or tackle zones come into play. No more wild short passes, at least not without some other penalty. |
_________________
Lude enixe, obliviscatur timor. |
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