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Wombats



Joined: Oct 31, 2003

Post 18 Posted: Aug 24, 2004 - 02:47 Reply with quote Back to top

Need input on:

1. Specific plays and the skills you need to make those plays work reliably
2. Unique Lizardman problems that trip up new Lizard coaches
3. Suggested skill progressions and what they are good/bad for

It would be great to get all your opinions on best tactics, development, etc. but more importantly your rationale for doing so and any negatives.

Depending on how much we manage to impress the powers that be (pretty much Colin, I believe) we can hopefully get this up in the User Guide or linked from there if it gets too big or it can't be formatted.

Major contributors (or plagiarisation victims) so far:
Colin - Original guide and several great tips.
Asperon Thorn & Circular Logic - Argument for Break Tackle on first skill.
Mezir - Correcting ludicrous passing advice Smile
tautology - General philosophical ramblings.
fork - Much needed probabilities on HMPs.


!!!Proposed Lizardman Strategy Guide

!!Strengths:
The greatest asset of the Lizardmen is their speed; the Skinks are lightning-fast with Ma 8, and even the strong Saurus have Ma 6. The Kroxigor is considered to be one of the best Big Guys out there being able to tie up opposing players with Prehensile Tail. Many coaches who have not played Lizardmen before struggle against them, mostly because they are so different. In the hands of a skilled coach, Lizardmen are very hard to beat.


!!Weaknesses:

!Saurus Immobility Syndrome
The very low agility of the Saurus means they get tied up easily with opponent Linemen and thus be caught out of position, unable to blitz key opposition players - without Break Tackle the Saurus' extraordinary Str 4 Ma 6 won't be available to blitz ball carriers.
Using Saurii in pairs means that one can free the other by blocking the player marking him.
It will be a long road to getting Break Tackle on even one Saurus so get used to planning ahead so you have a free Saurus to blitz with.

!Skink Deprivation
Only Skinks can handle the ball and beginning Lizardmen coaches often don't protect them as well as they could.
If an opposing player has Tackle and not Dodge remember you can mark them with a Saurus so they won't blitz your Skinks.
Dodge away from Block range before you tempt the dice with turnover inducing tasks.
Be aware that some coaches ascribe to the "Blitz a Skink every turn" philosophy. This boils down to luck on the armour rolls. At some point you'll find yourself with one or two Skinks on the field - I wish you the best of luck.


!!Plays & Tactics

!Basic Skink Running Plays
Three well-placed skinks and two hand-offs can move the ball the entire length of the field and score with ease in two turns. Getting Catch on makes hand-offs reliable and team rerolls for the pick up your will make this highly reliable. The trick is to get two or more skinks four deep in their half and keep at least one of them clear of blitzes and tackle zones for one turn. A weakness is the Skinks' inability to take Sure Hands without a double skill roll - This can leave you without a reroll for go for its and catches.

!Three Player Sidestep Sideline Cage
Protecting skinks in scoring range from blitzes and tackle zones can be done in several ways: Get enough skinks in range so they can't all be covered or cage one securely with a player on each diagonal square. A compromise is using a skink with Sidestep to form a half-cage on the sideline with A Saurus on each diagonally adjacent square. This gives you multiple potential scorers with the security of caging. Sidestep is vital so a crafty Elf or Goblin doesn't send your would-be scorer crowd surfing.

!Passing Plays
The majority of Lizardman coaches will avoid more than a Quick Pass. Skinks are Stunty and suffer a penalty on their range making a Quick Pass a 4+. The extraordinary movement of skinks will get you further with less chance of a turnover. Once you get an Agility 4 Skink though...try not to let your opponent kill the little feller Smile

!Hail Mary Pass/Catch/Diving Catch Combo
Skinks have no General skill access without doubles so you'll find you have a lot of Agility skills choices. Taking Catch and Diving Catch on two or three skinks then hoping for a double for Hail Mary Pass makes for an alternative scoring method. A Skink with Catch and Diving Catch has a 37% chance of receiving the ball including throwing the initial Hail Mary Pass. The HMP should be targeted on a Skink as Diving Catch is only activated when a pass targeted at that player scatters. You should not field your HMP skink except on offense as he will be blitzed and fouled leaving you without the keystone of a highly specialised team.

!Kroxigor Snuggles and Screens
Lizardmen's high movement allows them to put up an impressive screen. On a blitz or a fluffed Sure Hands roll you can often screen the ball from the opposition's scrimmage line (most of their team) with Skinks and even a Saurus or two.
Restricted Saurus movement is your biggest weakness - luckily you can share that joyous feeling with your opponent. Kroxigors are excellent for tying up players and forcing difficult dodges to free key players. Often you'll not want to move your Kroxigor for fear of a Bone Head roll releasing adjacent opponents from its tackle zone. Tackle is worth considering after Block as a -1 penalty will not worry a Dodger.
Diving Tackler Skinks can be used to tie down players further, particularly if nearby Guard can allow them to mark players without tempting a two dice block. Shadow on Saurii can further restrict your opponent.


!!Team Development

!Recycling __Skinks__ and Developing __Sauruses__
*Around TR150-175 you may find you have 30SPPs on each Skink and almost no skills on Saurii. This situation can be avoided by maximising the Saurii in your starting line up and minimizing the Skinks on your team. Purchase Team Rerolls and a Kroxigor in preference to extra Skinks. MVPs should land on Saurii and the Kroxigor more often and your Saurii should all have block by TR 175 if not at 150.
*Sauruses will either cause turnovers from a lack of Block or be extremely slow to develop owing to you making all other moves before you start Blocking. Neither is desirable - extra team rerolls allow you to block more with Saurii.
*You may lose scoring opportunities and probably matches as well if Skinks get injured. Retiring high SPP Skinks and any Skinks without statistic upgrades or doubles in their first two skills is worth considering to keep matches at a TR your Saurii can handle. Each new Skink is a chance to get statistic upgrades or doubles for only two touchdowns.
*If you find your Sauri are not getting their first skill while Skinks hit their second you may want to consider making Blocking with your Saurii a priority.

!Further Skink Life Support Techniques
*Block will increase survivability although it is best taken to protect an already valuable Skink (Agility 4 or your only Sure Hands) as even with Block and Dodge a Skink's days are numbered.
*Sidestep can stop your opponent chain-Blocking which is pushing back a skink into range of another Block.
*General competance handling the ball (Catch, Sure Hands, etc.) reduces turnovers which let opponents slap your Skinks.
*Put skills like Diving Tackle on injured Skinks due for retirement soon. This saves your valued Skinks and can severely restrict an opponent's tactical options.

!Reliable Blitzers
*Lizardmen can capitalise on a dropped ball quickly due to their high movement but this won't always happen. Their starting line up lacks a blitzer who can both dodge and hit hard.
*The blitzer Saurus archetype outlined below solves this problem although they only dodge once per turn and it will take time to get the right skills.
*A Skink with Block and Strip Ball can get inside a cage and hit the ball carrier with a one die block - this could be considered a waste of doubles rolls but is worth considering as Skinks have Stunty and can waltz through screens that would stop a Saurus in their tracks.
*Ganging up with Skinks works.

!Saurus Development
*Before TR200 you really won't be getting more than one or two skills on each Saurus (Frenzied Blockers are the exception) so plan for a useful combination of two skills. Consider giving your Saurii specific roles:
"Blitzers:" Break Tackle and Block, Tackle or Strip Ball Doubles: Frenzy, Stand Firm, Dodge
"Guards:" Block and Guard, Break Tackle Doubles: Stand Firm
*Most coaches advise getting Block first as it drastically increases their speed of SPP gain. It is worth getting one Break Tackle Saurii on the first skill if you have trouble freeing a Saurus for a blitz.
*Against an intelligent opponent you will need Break Tackle in order to Blitz with a Saurus.
*Guard is less valuable to a team with six Strength 4 players and a Big Guy.
*Mighty Blow with Block will increase your rate of SPP gain when Blocking but Block and Break Tackle will increase the number of opportunities to throw blocks - consider Mighty Blow as a later skill.
*Dodge can make a Saurus hard to take down but as Tackle becomes more common at high TRs it could well be a waste of a double.
*Stand Firm, particularly paired with Guard will drive the opposing coach nuts and Break Tackle will let that Saurus get in the most annoying places.
*Frenzy with Block makes for rapid SPP gain and a blitzer who can break into cages easily as well as send Blodgers crowd surfing.

!Dealing with Blodgers
*Your Saurii will be getting Block about the same time Elves will be getting Blodge if you are lucky.
*Designated blitzing Saurii may want to take Tackle and Frenzy if they can get it. Tackle should not be chosen lightly when there are alternative skills that are effective against bashy teams with no Dodge.
*Set up chain blocks to knock Blodgers into the crowd, foul Blodgers you manage to get down and bring in assists for three die blocks against Blodgers in possession.
*This is an arms race of who can get Block, Dodge/Tackle, Sure Hands/Strip Ball first and you will always be at least one skill, probably two skills behind. Play as dirty as you possibly can.

!Offensive/Defensive Skinks
An interesting concept is developing Skinks specifically for defense or scoring. Sure Hands, Catch, Sprint, Sure Feet and Sidestep are great skills for scorers while Diving Tackle, Sidestep, Block and Strip Ball are options for defensive Skinks to restrict your opponent and hit ball carriers your Saurus can't get to. Watch a good Goblin or Halfling player use their dodging ability to extract the ball from a supposedly impenetrable cage - you can achieve more with Skinks.

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www.realultimatepower.net


Last edited by Wombats on Aug 27, 2004 - 07:01; edited 15 times in total
Glomp



Joined: Jan 04, 2004

Post   Posted: Aug 24, 2004 - 04:36 Reply with quote Back to top

*inquisitorpustus' lizardmen user guide*

Don't bother with them they suck. Laughing

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Michael_Warblade



Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Post   Posted: Aug 24, 2004 - 05:14 Reply with quote Back to top

Hmm sometimes it is worth risking the skinks (especially if lots of them have DT) to tie your opponents players down for 1 turn so you can score with one of the 2 guys you left free (although I only play lizards in tourney and have major problems vs elf teams unless i roll some good AV and INJ rolls in the first few drives last match he went up 3-0 in first 3 drives but i managed to bring it to 3-3 in the end because he only had 5 elfs left) but then again my stats with lizards are pretty poor 12/6/13 from my 31 matches. However I dont have the ability to choose my opponents like some of the better lizardmen teams out there.
Wombats



Joined: Oct 31, 2003

Post   Posted: Aug 24, 2004 - 07:32 Reply with quote Back to top

inquisitorpustus wrote:
*inquisitorpustus' lizardmen user guide*

Don't bother with them they suck. Laughing


Go back to the Stunty Leeg midget fanciers and nancying around with your Woodies, you knowlessman and heretic.

Give em a try - Once you go green you'll never go back.

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Wombats



Joined: Oct 31, 2003

Post   Posted: Aug 24, 2004 - 07:53 Reply with quote Back to top

This needs pruning, particularly on the Saurus Skill development.

I'd like to make it more a selection of options and it's too instructive at the moment.

Feedback on what is valid and what is hearsay would be great.

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Markus



Joined: Aug 26, 2003

Post   Posted: Aug 24, 2004 - 08:26 Reply with quote Back to top

I would have a headline for the "team development". Could make it more structured.

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Wombats



Joined: Oct 31, 2003

Post   Posted: Aug 24, 2004 - 08:28 Reply with quote Back to top

Good point. Fixing...

Going to cut chunks out of that Saurus development bit soon, too.

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cthol



Joined: Nov 10, 2003

Post   Posted: Aug 24, 2004 - 09:39 Reply with quote Back to top

Markus: (off topis, i know, but short Smile ) Oscar Wilde has a "c",not a "k", (Oscar, not Oskar); it's Irish spelling, not German.

.... and Lizardmen suck, I can't beat them at all. Maybe I should have a Lizardman team.
tautology



Joined: Jan 30, 2004

Post   Posted: Aug 24, 2004 - 10:05 Reply with quote Back to top

A few thoughts from a coach who has had some success with Lizards IRL:
Quote:

Saurus Immobility Syndrome
The very low agility of the Saurus means they get tied up easily with opponent Linemen and thus be caught out of position, unable to blitz key opposition players - without Break Tackle the Saurus' extraordinary Str 4 Ma 6 won't be available to blitz ball carriers. Using Saurii in pairs means that one can free the other by blocking the player marking him.
It will be a long road to getting Break Tackle on even one Saurus so get used to planning ahead so you have a free Saurus to blitz with.

This is the essence of good lizard coaching...be creative, there are many paths to achieving Saurus Mobility.

Quote:

Skink Deprivation - A Slann Coach's Worst Nightmare

This is less of a problem than you think, if you are careful and use screens with your Sauri. But yes, you do well to start the game with 6 available skinks.

Quote:

Three Player Sidestep Sideline Cage

This works, and works quite well once you learn how to combine it with Saurus screens. Do it!

Quote:

Passing Plays


If you are passing with your AG3 skinks more than once every 3 games or so, you are losing. If you are not losing, you are either very lucky or playing against weak coaches. (I mean passing to make plays, not passing for the odd SPP).
Quote:

Recycling Skinks and Developing Sauruses
Around TR150-175 you may find you have 30SPPs on each Skink and almost no skills on Saurii. This situation can be avoided by maximising the Saurii in your starting line up and minimizing the Skinks on your team. Purchase Team Rerolls and a Kroxigor in preference to extra Skinks. MVPs should land on Saurii and the Kroxigor more often and your Saurii should all have block by TR 175 if not at 150. You will lose scoring opportunities and probably matches as well when Skinks get injured. Retiring high SPP Skinks and any Skinks without statistic upgrades or doubles in their first two skills is worth considering to keep matches at a TR your Saurii can handle. Each new Skink is a chance to get statistic upgrades or doubles for only two touchdowns. If you find your Sauri are not getting their first skill while Skinks hit their third you may want to consider making Blocking with your Saurii a priority. If you find your Skinks are dying too much have a look at the Skink Deprivation section above or consider recanting your affiliation with the Nuffle Blasphemer's Association


The key here is buying rerolls (and a bit of luck). Rerolls allow you to block with your Sauri more effectively at lower TRs, where you can more likely get casualties and SPPs. Protect your skinks when you have a new team! Don't GFI unnecessarily. Screen with your Sauri. It IS possible.
Quote:

Further Skink Life Support Techniques
Block will increase survivability although it is best taken to protect an already valuable Skink (Agility 4 or your only Sure Hands) as even with Block and Dodge a Skink's days are numbered.
Sidestep can stop your opponent chain-Blocking which is pushing back a skink into range of another Block.
General competance handling the ball (Catch, Sure Hands, etc.) reduces turnovers which let opponents slap your Skinks


Your priorities here are:
First doubles should be sure hands. This reduces your re-roll burn dramatically and protects against strip ball.
Next doubles should always be block. (duh!)
2 doubles on one skink should be block/strip ball. Trust me on this...
An AG4 skink is golden! Protect him in any way possible!
Otherwise, skinks should take side step/diving tackle/ sure feet...probably in that order though you may want to mix it up some.
You should ideally start every game with 2 skinks with sidestep/ diving tackle and hopefully block. Recycle skinks who have not reached doubles at 31 SPPs, whenever possible.
Quote:

Saurus Skills and Developing Reliable Blitzers
Sauruses will either cause turnovers from a lack of Block or be extremely slow to develop owing to you making all other moves before you start Blocking. Neither is desirable - find a balance that suits your style.
Consider giving your Saurii specific roles:
Blitzers: Break Tackle and Block, Tackle or Strip Ball Doubles: Frenzy, Dodge
Guards: Block, Guard, Break Tackle Doubles: Stand Firm
Lizardmen's weakness is their defense - Saurus can't dodge away to blitz a ball carrier and you need to endanger several Skinks to blitz with them. If the opponents drop the ball you will be able to capitalize on it quickly but this is not something you can depend on happening. I advise getting Block first as it drastically increases their speed of SPP gain and get one Break Tackle Saurii on the first skill if you have trouble freeing a Saurus for a blitz.
Guard is less valuable to a team with six Strength 4 players and a Big Guy. Mighty Blow with Block will increase your rate of SPP gainIt will become worthwhile approaching TR200. Dodge can make a Saurus hard to take down but as Tackle becomes more common at high TRs it could well be a waste of a double. Stand Firm + Guard will drive the opposing coach nuts and Break Tackle will let that Saurus get in the most annoying places. Frenzy + Block makes for rapid SPP gain and a blitzer who can break into cages easily.
Before TR200 you really won't be getting more than one or two skills on each Saurus (Frenzied Blockers are the exception) so plan for a useful combination of two skills.

Block is the first skill on all Sauri, barring doubles. Break Tackle is the first skill to take after block on the FIRST sauri to reach a second skill. He will develop more quickly at this point and should take tackle next (or possibly strip ball...).
Guard is the second skill for your next 2 Sauri, then another Break Tackle, then Guard again. Stand Firm is the best doubles selection. I MIGHT take Frenzy on a break tackle Sauri, but Stand Firm is probably still better. Frenzy + Stand Firm is golden, of course Wink Mighty Blow is the Fourth skill for most of your Sauri, after block/guard/break tackle. If you prefer winning to losing, that is.
You should ultimately have 2 Sauri with Block/ Break Tackle/Tackle/ (Guard) and 4 with Block/Guard
+MA is decent but not great for Sauri...better on a developed team than a newbie team. It is excellent as a 3rd or fourth skill. DO NOT take +AG on a Saurus, ever!

Your Kroxigor is indeed amongst the best of the big guys (along with the Rat Ogre). Lizards are one of the few teams that actually NEED their big guy (for most teams it is an unneccesary luxury). He should get Block/Tackle/Guard or Block Guard/Tackle. Doubles normally go to Pro, but Stand Firm is so excellent on the Krox that I might even take it first. Remember that there are times when it is best to DO NOTHING with the Krox, if losing your TZ due to bonehead would compromise your position.

Nigglers:
You sadly cannot afford nigglers on your Sauri. You will lose games quickly and horribly if your Sauri are prevented from playing. It sucks, but be brutally efficient about retiring niggled Sauri whenever possible. If you have 3 niggled Sauri, you are in grave danger.

Note: Sadly, you will likely never have Kick or Dirty Player on a Lizard team. You simply cannot afford the skill choice for a Saurus (until 250 TR or so, at least) and cannot "waste" doubles for a skink. DP I can do without quite frankly, but not having Kick really bites.

Best of luck to all who try out this challenging yet rewarding race Smile
JanMattys



Joined: Feb 29, 2004

Post   Posted: Aug 24, 2004 - 10:14 Reply with quote Back to top

IMO Lizards are the best race at TR 100. The morethey grow strong, the more they grow weak. Smile

Why? Because at TR 150 you have two niggles. At TR 200 you have six or more. And you begin to face tackle and strip ball.

The lizards are quite unbeatable if played right. The only stategy I always use when I face them is this: "blitz a skink per turn, n matter what". NEVER worry about sauruses. If you can get rid of the runners, the skinks lose more than half their strenght. May seem stange but my experience tells me that lizards are unstoppable if you do not use this tactic, but if you use it they become an easy opponent.

Just my 2p.

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CircularLogic



Joined: Aug 22, 2003

Post   Posted: Aug 24, 2004 - 10:16 Reply with quote Back to top

I really disagree...
Lizzies can put up a VERY tough defense. Sauri are a very good roadblock for a cage and skinks can give dodging elves a headache via DT.

Things I have to add:
NEVER make a pass unless you have NO other choice. Even a quickpass is 4+.
Get 4 RR as soon as possible. Stay at 12-13 players (6 sauri, krox and 5-6 skinks) until you have 4 or 5 RR.

Sauri-Skills:
First Sauri to get a skill get break tackle (followed by tackle and block). 3 other get block, the 5th gets break tackle again, and the last sauri gets MB. This way you always have a blitzer, and the saurus who was the unluckiest with the cas-rolls gains MB, so he catches up in the development.
Doubles: The first double is frenzy. This player should get break tackle and block ASAP. Frenzy-sauri are very good at the crowdpushes and on offense, you will go down the sidelines.

Skinks:
Get 2-4 guys with DT+sidestep, then you can think about catch and stuff.

Doubles:
STRIP BALL!!!
This is the ultimate defense-weapon, as I found out. There is no cage that can hold your skink out as you can dodge in on 3+. The odds of knocking the ball loose on a 1/2-d-blitz are 70%, if you have a reroll in spare. If you should ever be so lucky to get block on such a skink, he will go down only in 9% of those blitzes.

Other choices (for other skinks) are:
DP (great to have one to take out the strip-ball-blitzer or one of the few tacklers), surehands (if you play against a lot of strip-ball-guys) and the obvious block (on the valuable guys).

Defense:
Key to a good defense is the right positioning of the sauri. So keeping your sauri mobile on your first turn is vital. For it a setup works best, where I have the 2 BT-sauri on the wide zones, 2 sauri (block) and a krox on the LoS and 2 sauri (the one with frenzy, if you have and if you have one with tackle, put him here) in the backfield. The backfieldsauri should be screened by the 4 skinks, so that your opponent has to dodge in order to get to those guys. After his first turn, you can distribute 4 sauri (the backfield and BT-guys) to the ball, which should be enough to cause your opponent some headache.
JanMattys



Joined: Feb 29, 2004

Post   Posted: Aug 24, 2004 - 10:21 Reply with quote Back to top

Question: why you all indulge on strip ball and cage breaking? Is there anyone out there who REALLY makes a cage around a player without sure hands???? Would that player be a thrower, a blitzer, or whatever?

Can't believe it...

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tautology



Joined: Jan 30, 2004

Post   Posted: Aug 24, 2004 - 10:36 Reply with quote Back to top

Quote:

Question: why you all indulge on strip ball and cage breaking? Is there anyone out there who REALLY makes a cage around a player without sure hands???? Would that player be a thrower, a blitzer, or whatever?

Can't believe it...


Happens all the time.
tautology



Joined: Jan 30, 2004

Post   Posted: Aug 24, 2004 - 10:57 Reply with quote Back to top

Quote:

Doubles:
STRIP BALL!!!
This is the ultimate defense-weapon, as I found out. There is no cage that can hold your skink out as you can dodge in on 3+. The odds of knocking the ball loose on a 1/2-d-blitz are 70%, if you have a reroll in spare. If you should ever be so lucky to get block on such a skink, he will go down only in 9% of those blitzes.


While I prefer Block as a doubles selection and rely on Stand Firm/Guard Sauri and Sidestep/Diving Tackle skinks for defense, CircularLogic is absolutely correct about the strength of strip ball on a skink. It is a more aggressive defensive style and a bit harder on the skinks, but will also win games Smile
CircularLogic



Joined: Aug 22, 2003

Post   Posted: Aug 24, 2004 - 11:57 Reply with quote Back to top

jan_mattys wrote:
Question: why you all indulge on strip ball and cage breaking? Is there anyone out there who REALLY makes a cage around a player without sure hands???? Would that player be a thrower, a blitzer, or whatever?

Can't believe it...


Standard-Elven-Play...
Blitz a hole in the defense line and run 5 players through and form a cage.
75% of the players prefer to place the ball in the cage, while the other 25% make a pass/handoff game.

@tautology:
I love the lizzies for their aggressive style of play. The more pressure you build up, that faster the game gets and thatīs where lizzies main strenght, speed, really shines.
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