thmbscrws
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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 Posted:
Feb 08, 2005 - 16:06 |
 
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That doesn't change the fact that the beast being modified invalidates the fumbbl statistics as a judge of whether or not they are balanced. |
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"If God really existed it would be necessary to abolish him." - Mikhail Bakunin |
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odi
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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Feb 08, 2005 - 16:07 |
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losing thick skull won't make that much of a big difference to nurgs, with av7 stunties, and 2 tentacled big guys they "should" be able to handle themselves quite well. I don't really remember when was the last time I have cleared the field of nurglings, there haven't been many of those. I don't think complaining about ag2 is really a valid point, with access to physical traits, you can easily create ball handlers, that is if you decide to take a big hand on first doubles and wait a few games longer to get a DP. Besides the tentacled beasts with FA will make it harder for the oppo to get away with the ball either by dodging or handing off. |
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Jinxed
Joined: Jul 04, 2004
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Feb 08, 2005 - 16:10 |
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What Nazerdemus said.
Even if I can't be truly bothered as a Nurg coach.
Stunty should not be taken too seriously.
(as a cheating cup-winner does) |
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Kommando
Joined: Dec 08, 2003
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Feb 08, 2005 - 16:21 |
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oh well...
not half as brilliant like the random mutations on double... but still something... |
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Trif
Joined: Jun 10, 2004
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Feb 08, 2005 - 16:24 |
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will the cost for new nurglings be lowered then? |
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nazerdemus
Joined: Nov 02, 2004
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Feb 08, 2005 - 16:29 |
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Exactly how long ago was the beast changed ?
Id say possibly 25 % of the results may of been containtaminated by this but over the amount of games played the pre tentacles beast would of had to create anxceptional swing to still be relevant to the current statistical balance . |
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AvatarDM
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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Feb 08, 2005 - 18:30 |
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If there is really some "balancing" needed after removing Thick Skull, I'd suggest to lower the reroll cost to 60k. That would give them a small boost at low TR but won't have much effect at higher TR. (I don't think this is neccessary though) |
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hunter
Joined: Aug 11, 2003
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Feb 08, 2005 - 20:25 |
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I will reiterate my opinion that Nurglings are fine as they are, and should not be changed. I have yet to see a valid reason (in my mind) why they should be changed at all (yes, I followed the threads closely). That said, if they *must* be changed for some reason, I'm glad to see that loss of Thick Skull is the only change.
~hunter |
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Karhumies
Joined: Oct 17, 2004
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| Posted:
Feb 08, 2005 - 20:29 |
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I support the decision. Removing thick skull is the second best alternative after random mutations, as removing regenerate would be way too harsh and unfluffy. |
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odi
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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Feb 08, 2005 - 21:21 |
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There must be something good about playing nurgs, I personally don't coach such a team, but one thing I've noticed so far. At higher TR, stunty leeg sometimes feels like it's actually a nurglings league. So there must be something good in the nurglings team. I guess at lower tr they are not that powerful, but at a higher tr stunty league seems to be full of them. I personally usually challange whomever is around and whose teams I can find in the gamefinder, both up and down not really looking at the rosters, it's stunty league after all. And I usually accept most challanges in stunty, even if the other coach has a higher TR team, STR just doesn't work in stunty and I just hate to give handies.
But some statistics on my games in stunty afer TR 150:
Here are the amounts of games I've played with two of my teams with many games played at 150+ in TR:
fairy killers: after tr150
nurgs 9
snots 5
c-flings 4
slaves 1
halflings 1
strigs 1
gnomes 1
Nemesis of a troll: after tr 150
nurgs 13
gnome 4
c-flings 3
fairies 3
pygmy 3
snots 3
squigs 2
strigs 2
halflings 1
goblin cheater 1
halflings 1
goblins 1
That's 59 games, and 22 games against nurglings. I don't know if anyone sees a pattern there, but it seems that after tr 150, it seems 37% of my games are against nurgs, and I know they are not my favorite opponents. So that IMHO must mean that there are lots of nurg teams at tr150+, even though nurgs are only the 4th most popular race in stunty league (I didn't count gobbos or flings, because I don't know how many of those are actually in stunty league), the most popular races are:
C-Flings: 766 teams
Snotlings: 638 teams
Goblin Cheaters: 556 teams
Nurglings: 487 teams
Fairies: 375 teams
Gnome: 297 teams
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.
So if the teams are spread out evenly over the whole TR zone, I should be playing mostly c-flings, not nurgs. So I would say that nurgs might not be the best team to start with, but IMHO they flourish at higher TR. Or the other option is that C-flings are so scary at TR150+ that only teams with regen want to play them.
Ok, so this is all statistics combined with opinions., so let's combine more stats, just for the fun of it. Let's assume that 37% of my CAS for and against were against nurgs, which ofcourse isn't totally true, because of the AV7 on nurgs, I'd say less that 37% of my cas made are against nurgs, now assuming that 50% of them regenerate we can calculate the following:
Fairy Killers:
Cas for 182
Cas Against 127
Assuming 37% of both would be against nurgs that leaves
Cas for: 67
Cas Against 46
Nemesis Of A Troll:
Cas for: 257
Cas Against: 184
Assuming 37% of both would be against nurgs that leaves
Cas For: 95
Cas Against: 69
Now assuming that of those 162 Cas for, 50% regenerate, it's suddenly 81 cas for and 115 cas against which still leaves me well undermanned against nurglings, and combining this with thick skull trait, I'd say I would I'm most of the time undermanned. Then again the nurgs don't have apo, which has a much better chance at saving the big guys than regen, so someone could argue about that too.
Edit: Ok, I just counted the casualties for my other c-fling team whcih includes only the nurglins team:
Cas for: 69
Cas Against: 62
So if we still think that on average 50% of those casualties regen, so then players off the field would be 35-62 in the favor if the nurgs, and that's just for 13 games, so on average 2 more of my players are off the field compared to the nurgs. Add thick skull to this? I would roughly guestimate that the number of KO's is about the same as the number of cas, that would me about 60KO's against me, and 30 KO's and 30 stuns against the nurgs, let's say that of those 60 KO's of mine about 40 would wake up during the game as opposed to the 20 waking up from the nurglins teams, that will leave me even more undermanned. So the total amount of me being undermanned during these 13 games is:
C-flings KO'ed or cassed out: 62 (cas against) + 20 (staying KO'ed) 82
Nurgs KO'ed or cassed out: 35 (not regening) + 10 (staying KO'ed) 45
So on average, in the end I'm playing with 6 players less than I started with, as oposed to the nurgs 3,5. And take note that c-flings at higher TR rarely start the game with 16 players, because of mng's from previous games, while the nurgs, because of regen, are usually able to field all 16 players. I'd say removing thick skull will just give the other teams a bit more room to move in.
And as someone will propably say after this post, I have too much time on my hands, that might be true too. But my final statement would be that nurgs wouldn't suffer so badly about losing thick skull, with AV7 and regen, they can usually keep fielding a full team. And they are very good at higher TR. Ball handling shouldn't really be a problem either, just as long as you pick big hand atleast once on doubles, and not just keep stacking on DPs. But that's just my two cents.
And I would like to point out that those cas numbers are just quick rough calculations, I didn't have that much time on my hands, that I would have counted together all the cas for and against nurglings, if I get the time, I might actually do that too.
And the match record (w/t/l) against nurgs after TR150:
Nemesis Of A Troll: 4/4/5
Fairy Killers: 6/2/1
Total 10/6/6
Win% 45
All games played by the c-flings after TR150:
Nemesis Of A Troll: 18/11/9
Fairy Killers: 17/3/3
Total: 35/14/12
Win%57
Ok, from this it might seem that c-flings are overpowered, and should be tweaked, my point was that the nurgs seem to put up a much better fight against c-flings than all teams on average. Win% against nurgs is 13% lower than the average against all races, if the win % was counted against all races except nurgs, the difference would be much higher. One thing that can be seen from those figures, is how much better the fairy killers have faired overall, they have a much better win%, and suprise suprise, the mino there has tentacles, he must be somehow related to the beast of nurgle and it seems to help 
ps. Feel free to disregard everything mentioned above, if you feel like it, these are after all just opinions.
Ok, here's a good example of a game against an advanced nurgs team, doesn't really matter what you do, I was never able to get the nurgs fielding a not full team, and the nurgs had enough ball handlers to score easily. BTW those beasts didn't even have those claw or rsc when the game was played. |
Last edited by odi on %b %09, %2005 - %14:%Feb; edited 3 times in total |
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Mith
Joined: Jan 17, 2005
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| Posted:
Feb 08, 2005 - 21:41 |
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easy change here.
Take off thick skull from Nurglings and leave them at the same price.
Add a new positional Nurgle who has the stats mv6 str2 agi2 av7 and thick skull and sure hands for 40K more (0-4)
that adds the next positional players the nurglings desperatly need but at the same time increase the cost and limits the durability of this team. |
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freak_in_a_frock
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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| Posted:
Feb 08, 2005 - 21:43 |
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Nice post Odi, and one that i can totally sympathise with, once you get towards the 200Tr mark it gets even worse, it seems to be populated by gobbos and nurglings, proving that av7 goes a long way in stunty, if people really think that thick skull is the only reason nurglings can compete, then they are seriously deluded.
They have the meanest big guys in stunty, that after a few doubles would scare the living crap out of most LRB teams, and if you combine that with one of the most durable stunty players meant that everytime you played a nurgling team it was a battle of survival. If you are all that bothered, at least we all know what your first choice on a double will be. |
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AvatarDM
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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| Posted:
Feb 08, 2005 - 22:03 |
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| Mith wrote: | easy change here.
Take off thick skull from Nurglings and leave them at the same price.
Add a new positional Nurgle who has the stats mv6 str2 agi2 av7 and thick skull and sure hands for 40K more (0-4)
that adds the next positional players the nurglings desperatly need but at the same time increase the cost and limits the durability of this team. |
Peikko already said that he didn't wanted additional positional players. But even then, I don't think you should change the main weakness of the Nurgs: bad ballhandling on most players (except the few Big Hand or +AG players).
I'd prefere to see a Foul Appearance player than a Sure Hands player. But just removing Thick Skull should be ok too. |
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odi
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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| Posted:
Feb 08, 2005 - 22:27 |
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| freak_in_a_frock wrote: | Nice post Odi, and one that i can totally sympathise with, once you get towards the 200Tr mark it gets even worse, it seems to be populated by gobbos and nurglings, proving that av7 goes a long way in stunty, if people really think that thick skull is the only reason nurglings can compete, then they are seriously deluded.
If you are all that bothered, at least we all know what your first choice on a double will be. |
Thanks, I am at the tr200 barrier btw. Oh and doubles on a nurg team, first I would take Big Hand. It's just my carvers that keep rolling doubles, and that saw+dp stacks so nicely in the client
Thick skull isn't the main reason why nurgs can compete in tr200+, that would be AV7+regen, but removing thick skul would leave some more room to the opponents to move in, without nerfing the whole team. |
Last edited by odi on %b %09, %2005 - %09:%Feb; edited 2 times in total |
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Captain1821
Joined: Jun 23, 2004
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 Posted:
Feb 08, 2005 - 22:35 |
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Everyone that followed the Nurglings balancing thread know the many reason I posted for why the Nurglings should not change.
About Nurglings be powerful at higher TR that is totally false. Check the Stunty Cup where the best Stunty teams compete. Only one Nurgling team made it to the finals and they failed twice! (Gnomes made it to the finals of Stunty Cup right after they changed, which shows how powerful they became but this is another matter).
People don't play against Nurglings in higher TR because they know that probably they will have no team after the game even when they know that they will probably win.
It is like with Chaos in ranked. You know that you have very good chances to win them in high TR but you don't play them because you know that you will safer many casualties. That way Chaos teams play mostly against Chaos teams like Nurgling teams play mostly against Nurgling teams. It has nothing to do with people afraid to lose because they will probably win.
The fact that a change was decide between the people that read the forum doesn't mean that the public has the same opinion, because very few from the thousands coaches read it.
Nurglings should not be changed at all. |
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