ankkh
Joined: Feb 29, 2004
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 Posted:
Mar 08, 2005 - 03:11 |
 
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Is fouling really nerfed in the situation where bashing really hurts the most? Now one can foul every turn with 1/6 risk of getting sent off, even though the DP damage modifier is reduced to +1 . Playing with superior number bashers against elves or the like, it could get ugly, as you can continue to foul every turn when the risk of getting caught isn't increased. With 3 DP's they probably all won't get caught during the whole of the match. Naturally this means that you have to commit one player's action (and skill choice) to fouling but still the reward is big. Usually when playing elves against bashers, I let my opponent take his two 5/36 (chance of ejection) fouls and let him be over with it... But with the vault rules... Don't know, maybe I missed something, and haven't done the maths for it either, but... |
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DoubleSkulls
Joined: Oct 05, 2003
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Mar 08, 2005 - 04:42 |
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You get sent off on doubles for either the armour or injury - so roughly speaking you've a 1/6 if you don't break armour and nearly 1/3 if you get an injury. As 5,5 & 6,6 are casualties you are more likely to get sent off if you get a cas than if you fail to break armour.
Roughly fouling with DP is about half as bloody (i.e. nearly half the number of cas) and about 2/3s of the chance of getting sent off.
If you are interested I put up some more detailed stats on talkbloodbowl. |
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Ian 'Double Skulls' Williams
Eucalyptus Bowl |
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SnakeSanders
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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Mar 08, 2005 - 10:32 |
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| Doubleskulls wrote: | | I think that all sounds great and it would be fantastic if the relevant people could implement it. |
As far as i am aware, Ski didnt seem to be too keen to invest a lot of his free time in coding vaut features that may be changed or even abandoned, for example Inducements and spiralling expenses/League Cap. But then again, i could be wrong  |
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Britnoth
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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Mar 08, 2005 - 11:18 |
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| GalakStarscraper wrote: | Guess I'm looking more at it from the standpoint of the Blitzer doing the Blitz trying to recover the ball as well. Wrestle is only any good at knocking the ball loose. But for many fast AG 4 ball handlers (MA 8/9) ... being knocked prone and losing the ball is only a minor inconvenience toward scoring if you cannot get other folks into position.
Not arguing that Wrestle is not the better skill. You make some solid points. I just can see that there will be times where down the Blitzer and the Ball Carrier might leave your opponent with only one 2+ roll to score instead of at least two 2+ rolls to do so.
Galak |
That is the same reason I find strip ball is a low priority skill on ag3 teams... certainly I'd never take it on a player that can get guard + mighty blow instead. After rereading the latest vault skill list, I suspect frenzy + jugger will be the first 2 skills on most mummies. They are slow str 5 players with general and strength though, so are semi-big guys themselves.
For me, skills get picked if they are used often. Strip ball isnt.... wrestle would be... but juggernaught will be used least of all. Guard on fx a team with only 5 players with S access is too good to pass up.
Kick off return - 3 free moves every tick you recieve a kick.
Accurate - equivalent of +3 range every time you throw, recieving or kicking, plus helps reduce fumbles at longer range.
Maybe on ma5 KoR is useful, but cmon its pretty limited for most teams... in fact the only use I'd consider it for is to advance a 3rd player into a wide zone, or maybe even help defend against a blitz! KO result. So many other skills to get before that though. |
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Britnoth
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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Mar 08, 2005 - 11:50 |
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| Snappy_Dresser wrote: | If I may, lots of people blitz with their Big Guys (at least lots I know), particularily Skaven. One such coach has turned his Rat Ogre into a Nightmare cage breaker with the addition of this skill.
Stand Firm is Great in its vault form, the teams I find it is the most useful in are teams like Amazons (who tend to stay on their feet), now they stay standing, and aren't shunted away from your cage.
And Traits are, IMO, stupid, as they rely on one roll (not even an IG roll at that) to give overwhelming skills to the lucky few (I liked that Mutations were trimed as well). |
Ok I disagree with all of these statements.
1. Big guys are not supposed to be reliable. Only time you should blitz with them is either a) when it doesnt matter if they mess up or b) you cant get another guy with better skills like block, tackle, strip ball, mighty blow etc to do the job instead.
2. As someoen who has played the odd game with amazons, I can tell you that they need other skills before stand firm. Currently SF is a good choice because of the safe dodging ability, without it it's a skill for higher str players that are trying to build a cage. No thanks.
3. Traits are good... they limit good skills from being taken every time. Vault has dauntless + frenzy as general skills now... yuck.
4. Mutations are even stronger than they were before in the vault. Good thing - extra arms and vll now have a point. Bad things - hypno gaze a mutation?? Steals the only thing a vampire team has going for it in favour of super mobile gutters with hypno...  |
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DoubleSkulls
Joined: Oct 05, 2003
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Mar 08, 2005 - 12:10 |
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The PBBL is much more stable now than it was a year ago. I'd expect 1.7 to last a few months, and then 1.8 to have only small changes to 1.7.
So its more palatable for him to contemplate the change. I believe Galak's finally getting around to working on the PBEM version. |
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Ian 'Double Skulls' Williams
Eucalyptus Bowl |
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Colin
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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Mar 08, 2005 - 12:31 |
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I think it would be no harm at all to give SkiJunkie some sort of semi-official BBRC-stamped assurance that things are nearly done; if SkiJunkie knows that the big things won't change, then I think he would be more amenable.
The biggest changes to the client will be adding support for inducements and cards (if they appear - I suspect SkiJunkie will not support cards anyway, in the same way he didn't add the LRB handicap table for a very long time. Such things are time consuming to add, and will likely change). Other things like the winner getting an option to reroll winnings and FF rolls will be fiddly too, requiring input from coaches after the final whistle. |
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Join The Cult of Tzeentch, mutate randomly! | Hug a newb! Join the Faculty of Academy Instructors! |
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SnakeSanders
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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Mar 08, 2005 - 13:32 |
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yer it would be cool if it was made open source so we could get it done, but then again its ski's baby! |
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Snappy_Dresser
Joined: Feb 11, 2005
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Mar 09, 2005 - 04:32 |
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| Britnoth wrote: | | Snappy_Dresser wrote: | If I may, lots of people blitz with their Big Guys (at least lots I know), particularily Skaven. One such coach has turned his Rat Ogre into a Nightmare cage breaker with the addition of this skill.
Stand Firm is Great in its vault form, the teams I find it is the most useful in are teams like Amazons (who tend to stay on their feet), now they stay standing, and aren't shunted away from your cage.
And Traits are, IMO, stupid, as they rely on one roll (not even an IG roll at that) to give overwhelming skills to the lucky few (I liked that Mutations were trimed as well). |
Ok I disagree with all of these statements.
1. Big guys are not supposed to be reliable. Only time you should blitz with them is either a) when it doesnt matter if they mess up or b) you cant get another guy with better skills like block, tackle, strip ball, mighty blow etc to do the job instead.
2. As someoen who has played the odd game with amazons, I can tell you that they need other skills before stand firm. Currently SF is a good choice because of the safe dodging ability, without it it's a skill for higher str players that are trying to build a cage. No thanks.
3. Traits are good... they limit good skills from being taken every time. Vault has dauntless + frenzy as general skills now... yuck.
4. Mutations are even stronger than they were before in the vault. Good thing - extra arms and vll now have a point. Bad things - hypno gaze a mutation?? Steals the only thing a vampire team has going for it in favour of super mobile gutters with hypno... |
Response:
1. Don't really get your point. Yes they're worse than others at it (in a certain light). You seem to be argueing that because you FEEL that big guys shouldn't blitz, they shouldn't have any skills that improve their chances at blitzing.
2. Great, fine, you FEEL that amazons taking SF is a bad idea. Maybe you're right. But I FEEL that you're merely stating an opinion again, and, given the way my buddy plays amazons, it serves him in good stead.
3. True, traits did limit those skills that were ridiculously overpowering (and some that weren't), and that is a danger (that I was worried about), but it hasn't come to pass in my league, so my fears seem to have been unfounded. I think that the only former trait that's even been picked has been NOS, and it's not like everyone's picking it
4. I really don't have an opinion on this. Both Chaos and Skaven have some rather glaring flaws to balance their access to mutations. I do like that the non-pickup/kick the crap out of my opponent mutations are seeing play, however. You're right about hypnotic gaze, though. Although I feel vampires still have a lot to recomend them. |
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zredna
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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Mar 09, 2005 - 05:32 |
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Dauntles as General, that will help all teams with fast st2 players a lot!
I have two dauntles catchers on my human team and they are excelent blizers, place them behind blizers in defence and then use them to bliz. With mv 8 or mv 9 for skaven and woodies its nasty. and to roll 4+ to bliz an st3 thrower is a 1 in 12 chanse for dauntles to work.
Zredna |
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Snappy_Dresser
Joined: Feb 11, 2005
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Mar 09, 2005 - 06:03 |
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| zredna wrote: | Dauntles as General, that will help all teams with fast st2 players a lot!
I have two dauntles catchers on my human team and they are excelent blizers, place them behind blizers in defence and then use them to bliz. With mv 8 or mv 9 for skaven and woodies its nasty. and to roll 4+ to bliz an st3 thrower is a 1 in 12 chanse for dauntles to work.
Zredna |
A good tactic to be sure...once. Because as soon as you run your GR in to blitz my...whatever, you better believe my next action is going to be to blitz that GR (who's deep and unsupported) then foul his butt until he's dead/injured.
Plus, like any other thing in this game, it has a tendency to fail when it's really needed.
*And remember, things like horns can't help a dauntless block anymore, so you'll be making a 1d block. |
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SnakeSanders
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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Mar 13, 2005 - 18:58 |
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OK...
1.7.1 has been released so i have updated my reference sheet to accomodate these changes and you can find the link on the first page.
Or you can get it here
Vault 1.7.1 Reference Sheet |
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AWAD
Joined: Feb 27, 2005
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Mar 15, 2005 - 01:41 |
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[quote="Britnoth"]| DoubleSkulls wrote: | | LRB fouling rules are obviously broken. The risk reward ratio is well out of alignment. |
Here are 2 proposals I've wanted to see for some time now:
1. If a player is ejected, the maximum players on the field for that team is reduced by 1 also (like it is in most real life sports - if your guy gets ejected you're down to 10 players even after the next drive).
quote]
That is a rocking idea. Do not nerf fouling, just contain it, and I think this would contain it. I can see a Chaos team that has only 8 players on the pitch... not do to injury but ejection. And repeat offenders or people with DP have a higher chance to be noticed. So they should have the better chance to hurt the victim, but also better to be caught. Kind of the like the enforcers in Hockey, they have a job, they and the team suffer for it also.
AWAD- then you foul for reason, and you want to make it count |
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CircularLogic
Joined: Aug 22, 2003
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Mar 17, 2005 - 10:07 |
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About the fouling-issue:
I took part in small (6 Teams) local league. They were using the latest vault rules and the teams were quite mixed (2 elves, khemri, human, orc and chaos). As DP was really nerfed, there was only one coach taking this skill - the Khemri. He soon had build up a 15 player squad with 5 DP and he fielded 3 every drive. He managed to make a 2-1 win nearly every game as he fouled up his way to the endzone. The games always looked the same:
He opted to kick, let them score while bashing up some of the offense. Then afer the 2 or 3 turn TD, he recieved, made a solid cage (2 mumies, 2 blitz-ra) and used the remaining 6 players to hunt down the oposition. His calculation was easy: With 5+ assists he would break armor nearly every time. Then he made a KO or worse with a 21/36 chance while being ejected 12/36 times. So he just traded of players to ensure his superiority. That resulted usually in 4+ players of his opposition to get fouled out and 2 players being ejected.
2nd half he recieved against and repeated the process again. Of course when I delayed my first TD, he couldn´t score his TD first half, but the draw cost me alot of players. The problem her is the fact, that you can trade players without a problem. Even if you break armor on 7+ you get a positive tradeoff, if you just look at players on the pitch for this drive.
The other problem in the league was a Dragon Warrior who got lucky with his advancement-rolls. After 3 Rolls we had a 7548 block leap monstrosity. This guy had a guard leap lino, too and there was no chance to hide the ball. The major problem was, that noone could take him out. Due to the nerf of DP, beside the Khemri I was the only one with a DP-lino. I got this dragonwarrior down three times and fouled three times, but couldn´t manage to inflict more than a KO. Without aging, this monster grew without injuries and dominated the league. With the old DP if would have been a matter of 3-5 games till he would have had his first set of permanent injuries.
I agree, that DP within the old ruleset was overpowered, so I thought of an alternative:
Modify the ref-roll depending on the injury cause by the foul.
KO: +1
BH/SI: +2
RIP: +3 (if apo is used, only +2)
So for the first foul there is a 50% ejection-chance, if I cause a cas. For a cas with the Eye, the fouler is ejected on 2+ - RIP = autoejection.
OPTIONAL:
Another problem is the fact, that the fouler has no permanent risks (meaning: he cannot die/niggle because he fouls). As the Ref-Roll can generate results between 1 and 11, we can just add other penalties:
6+: player ejected
9+: player ejected + MNG (only possible with a KO/cas while having the eye on your team)
11: player arrested for murder - remove him from the rooster (only happens when you kill someone with the eye on you and roll a 6)
OR:
11: player ejected + MNG - he is ganged up by fans of the player he killed -> roll on the SI-table and treat MNG-only results as RIP |
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origami
Joined: Oct 14, 2003
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Mar 18, 2005 - 22:13 |
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Good idea, but it seems a bit complicated. However, there is some fluff to support referees dispensing summary justice on the field (with a chainsaw, actually). This could be represented by the fouling player making a roll on the vault SI table whenever a 12 is rolled on either the armor or injury rolls during a foul.
One big change with this current set of vault rules is the apothecary. I think that this will easily up the injury rate enough to make up for the loss of aging. With the apo just allowing a RR on the SI table, it basically has a 1/3 chance of failing - and a 1/6 chance of killing your player.
Niggles, too, are just as bad, if not worse than they are now. A single niggle and your player takes damage like a stunty. Get two niggles, and everytime he gets knocked over it's the equivalent of getting hit by somebody with RSC. Get three niggles...
Combine this with the nerfed apothecary and teams will likely take injuries at a rate just as high as they currently do with aging. This isn't necessarily bad, but it doesn't seem to give much relief to low av teams. |
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