celas
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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 Posted:
Apr 02, 2005 - 22:25 |
 
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My two cents.....most people obviously have a great deal of respect for Evo and his work as a builder and coach, myself included. From previous posts between Evo and hunter, it is (was?) obvious that there are some issues that each side may have with the other. Since I am not directly involved with these issues, I hope I can be objective in highlighting what is important here. Playtesting stunty teams for balance, uniqueness, and playing style (the fluff does not require playtesting per se). I believe this league will shed some light on each of these attributes. Even if it were a poorly run league, which I doubt it will be, important information may be garnered from this experience. Perhaps past interactions have led people to believe that they could not give input into the project. I do not intend to challenge the accuracy of what one believes. I only hope that everyone (especially Evo) would be willing to continue to give input because the community will listen.
I do not believe that the primary issue here is who is better, has done more, is right, etc. between Evo and hunter. That issue only serves to distract(detract?) from the purpose of this league (in my most humble opinion). If hunter does not accept feedback from Evo, then he is putting personal feelings in front of the real goal. This, of course, works both ways. If one writes that this project has merit, then it has merit. I hope we are able to judge the real merit of it by the results of the playtesting and not who is running it, who was asked to play in it, who was asked to submit team ideas, etc. For the record, from what I saw I thought that there was an open invitation for anyone to submit a team or playtest a new design or coach a current roster as long as they did so by a certain date (and there were separate dates for submitting concepts for the team ideas and a separate date for volunteering coaches). I was surprised that Evo did not take up the offer (although I don't know Evo that well so I realize my opinions and assumptions could be off base), as I believe that his mere presence would be helpful and his team designs often require strategy that only a few possess (and thus if inferior strategy were used in playtesting Evo's teams, they may appear quite weak).
Anyway....it seems as though a large part of the community is willing to help out. I hope everyone will continue to do so in the future. I believe these types of leagues will help expose many team's weaknesses or if they are overpowered or if they need more "uniqueness" before considering them for the stunty league (which I should remind everyone before Peikko posts here....PEIKKO HAS THE FINAL SAY....we are just helping to collect data).
I want to conclude my post by applauding everyone has participated in trying to improve the fun of Stunty Leeg. That includes those who post, play teams, submit ideas, critique ideas, show some passion, playtest, provide grounding and philosophy for development, etc. Keep up the good work, speak your mind, and have fun. |
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Northern Wastes League |
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Dooby
Joined: Nov 22, 2003
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Apr 03, 2005 - 01:14 |
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Just played a game Skinks VS Gnoblars
Saw Celas online so decided to have a crack at playtesting
First thing - Are Gnoblares supposed to have 4 Trappers or 6 ? Says 4 on Hunters site but 6 on the proposal screen. From my first game against them I would say it makes one hell of a difference as they were the turning point in the game.
Skinks were always going to suffer against Gnoblars but hey thats what playtesting is about.
Went down 2-1. If it wasn't for some below average cas rolls the skinks might even had to have been retired such was the frequency they fell. As always you can't learn too much on one game but I would say that luck was even so the 2-1 was fair. Played it like a real game even loaded up some icons for his ogres 
Didn't really trouble his armour as I managed just one BH against his three and one dead if I remember correctly. Lots of KO as well. STR 1 was not really a disadvantage as most of the play was Trappers and ogres, Gnobs helped in cage tactics and making the tea.
All in all I'd rate them 6/10 MFT (Mildly Frustrating Trappers) |
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celas
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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| Posted:
Apr 03, 2005 - 02:57 |
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Here's my take:
Dooby and I playtested a game. I was Gnoblars, he was Skink (which is a bad match up for skink imho).
Score CAS For
Gnoblars 2 4/0/1
Skink 1 1/0/0
Important highlights:
-Skink dagger was BH in the first half and was apothed. Skinks had a full team until turn 2/3 2nd half and then lost players due to KOs and BH. First half ended 1-1. Gnoblars made a cage and a slow march to score in the 2nd half. A few key stats from the game. Big Guys failed 2+ BH or WA rolls only 3/27 times (1/9 instead of 1/6). His poison dagger failed to penetrate AV 8 (i.e., the Gorgor) 9 times!! That is the main story. Tentacles were really cool to play with. |
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Northern Wastes League |
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hunter
Joined: Aug 11, 2003
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| Posted:
Apr 03, 2005 - 06:32 |
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Evo,
The Stunty Compendium was designed to consolidate conceptual Stunty Leeg teams and facilitate playtesting. Although I am the organizer of this project, FUMBBL community involvement has always been encouraged. I feel that everyone in the community who is interested in the continued progression of the Stunty Leeg should have a voice; as such, I have attempted to remain open-minded and constructive when evaluating others’ concepts, and I have excluded none from the Compendium (other than some after the posted deadline). In attempting to treat everyone as equals, I have not specifically invited coaches to either submit teams or volunteer for playtesting, even those coaches with whom I speak on a daily basis or who have historically been active in the Stunty Leeg. I am sorry that you feel slighted in this way- I certainly did not intend for that to happen. I felt that it would be presumptuous and callous of me to either invite or exclude any coaches or teams.
As you have proven yourself a very active contributor to the Stunty Leeg and have demonstrated great interest in its progression, I think that you would find playtesting the Compendium teams a worthwhile endeavor. Your input (like everyone’s) is valued, and you can provide unique playtesting feedback given your extensive historical role in team development and current involvement. I am going to form the tournaments tomorrow, and am accepting volunteers until then- you are quite welcome to sign up! I am not including any additional teams at this time, but will gladly do so after this first round of playtesting. Again, I will be accepting any teams that are sent to me, provided they have been presented and discussed in the forums. Instructions for submission can be found on the Compendium website.
I think that we (you, I, and the rest of the FUMBBL community) are all working towards the same goals here: the fine-tuning and progression of the Stunty Leeg. The Compendium and playtesting tournaments are my contribution to these processes, and have called upon any and all interested FUMBBL community members to contribute and assist. It is my hope and expectation that the information garnered will prove fruitful to our collective endeavors.
I hope that I have addressed your concerns. If not, please PM me and we can discuss it further.
Regards,
~hunter |
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Last edited by hunter on %b %28, %2006 - %23:%Jun; edited 1 time in total |
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hunter
Joined: Aug 11, 2003
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Apr 03, 2005 - 06:41 |
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celas and Dooby,
Thanks for the information! Sounds like you had a fun time, although Gnoblars might have had an upper edge to begin with. 
In the future, it will work best for me if you send me the results via PM or e-mail- that way, this thread won't get too cluttered up and I will be able to keep track of everything more easily. Thanks again for the info, and keep on playtesting! The tournament will be created tomorrow.
Regards,
~hunter |
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Dooby
Joined: Nov 22, 2003
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| Posted:
Apr 03, 2005 - 23:28 |
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You might want to put all the positions.ini on your first post matey. Need to change kobolds to kobold btw |
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hunter
Joined: Aug 11, 2003
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| Posted:
Apr 04, 2005 - 00:25 |
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| Quote: |
You might want to put all the positions.ini on your first post matey. Need to change kobolds to kobold btw
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Good idea, thanks- it is done. Gnoblar positions are missing though- if someone wants to PM me some, I'll move them to the first post. Otherwise, I'll try to get to it later.
At this point, sign-ups are officially over for the current round of playtesting. Those in the tourney, check the group page for the tournament schedule (which I'll be making immediately).
Thanks to all who have volunteered! After the playtesting has completed, we will disseminate the results to the FUMBBL community.
Regards,
~hunter |
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Stunty Leeg Central - For ALL your Stunty needs! |
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Dooby
Joined: Nov 22, 2003
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| Posted:
Apr 04, 2005 - 00:28 |
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[GNOBLAR]
GNOBLAR=G
TRAPPER=T
OGRE GORGER=Og
OGRE MANEATER=Om
OGRE IRON GUT=Oi |
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Dooby
Joined: Nov 22, 2003
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| Posted:
Apr 04, 2005 - 00:29 |
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I am particulary proud of my work regarding OGRE IRON GUT - You wouldn't believe the amount of time it took to decide on Oi |
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EvolveToAnarchism
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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Apr 04, 2005 - 02:19 |
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| hunter wrote: |
In the future, it will work best for me if you send me the results via PM or e-mail |
If you want playtests results to be more useful, I'd suggest that you post them in the forums and send a copy to the rosters' creators. That way everyone can examine and comment on the results.
If you want your playtests results to be even more useful, I highly suggest that you get several coaches to use the roster.
If you want to be more helpful, you can host your playtest results (.zip files) on a webpage (it's very easy to do). That way designers can get an idea of how people are using their rosters.
If you want things to be more manageable, I suggest that the creators create a playtesting results thread on FUMBBL where their results can be posted.
If you want want only marginal playtest results:
* only use the team in a tournament with only one coach using the roster
* play a majority of your games against teams that aren't part of the Stunty Leeg
* play using poorly design teams (a high squig/low RR squig hunter team for example)
* hide your results from the FUMBBL community
* discourage people to post comments on matches that they've played
As Always,
Evolve To Anarchism
New Blood Bowl Cards |
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Ignorance is Strength quis custodiet ipsos custodes As Always, Evolve To Anarchism |
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hunter
Joined: Aug 11, 2003
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Apr 04, 2005 - 03:41 |
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Thanks for the suggestions, Evo. Here are my responses:
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If you want playtests results to be more useful, I'd suggest that you post them in the forums and send a copy to the rosters' creators. That way everyone can examine and comment on the results.
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As I mentioned here, I will present the overall findings to the FUMBBL community at the end of playtesting. In the meantime, individual match results and reports will be added to the individual team pages, accessible from the main website. This information was previously mentioned in the same post as above.
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If you want your playtests results to be even more useful, I highly suggest that you get several coaches to use the roster.
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Good point- this would certainly be ideal. A few of the teams will be coached by 2 coaches in this first round, but I anticipate that subsequent rounds of playtesting will be required to test some of the same teams. This was implicated here, and hopefully some of the same coaches involved in this first round of playtesting will assist in subsequent rounds! New volunteers will be requested as well.
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If you want to be more helpful, you can host your playtest results (.zip files) on a webpage (it's very easy to do). That way designers can get an idea of how people are using their rosters.
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I would love to be able to do so, but I am already stretching my limited time too far as it is. I know it wouldn't add a lot of time on my part for each file, but many small amounts of time add up to larger amounts of time. The best I can do right now is present the match reports on the website for everyone to see... I would recommend that coaches interested in replaying games contact one of the match coaches to request the .zip file. If you know of someone with a website who would be willing to assist in such a manner, please send me that information!
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If you want want only marginal playtest results:
* only use the team in a tournament with only one coach using the roster
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I believe that 3 of the teams will be coached by 2 separate coaches. The rest will have a single coach. Please see my response above implicating future rounds of playtesting using the same (potentially tweaked) teams by different coaches. Although it would have been ideal to have multiple coaches for each team, I believe that 16 volunteers for this project is a great number. These coaches have diverse interests and playing styles, and will yield valuable information. The call for volunteers was repeatedly presented in the forums, and everyone had ample opportunity to sign up. If you know of any coaches who would like to be involved in the next round, please forward me their names, or ask them to indicate their intentions in the appropriate thread.
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* play a majority of your games against teams that aren't part of the Stunty Leeg
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Please see my last point. Volunteers to play existing rosters were also requested here, in bold. Again, if you know of any coaches who would like to sign up for subsequent playtesting rounds, please send me that information.
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* play using poorly design teams (a high squig/low RR squig hunter team for example)
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EDIT: I think I may have initially misinterpreted this line, due to the accidental "hunter" instead of "herder". I bet my first response appeared really odd and/or sarcastic- sorry about that! Anyway, the prototypical rosters I selected were simply based on what I found a majority of in the teams database. Also, as the conceptual teams have highish starting FF in general, I wanted to select rosters for existing teams with similar FF levels. After reading origami's post below, I will look into changing the rosters he mentioned and also look over the others.
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* hide your results from the FUMBBL community
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Please see my first response in this post, and follow the links to where I indicated accessibility for all FUMBBL community members.| Quote: |
* discourage people to post comments on matches that they've played
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Good point- I'm glad I thought of that too! If you check out the website or the group page, you will see that I have always emphasized the importance of match reports (see bold text). It was also mentioned here.
Okay, I think I hit all of the points- hopefully I addressed your concerns sufficiently. If anyone has further concerns or questions, please feel free to post or contact me!
Regards,
~hunter |
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Stunty Leeg Central - For ALL your Stunty needs!
Last edited by hunter on %b %28, %2006 - %23:%Jun; edited 2 times in total |
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origami
Joined: Oct 14, 2003
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Apr 04, 2005 - 05:36 |
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Personally, I plan to try to play two matches back to back against each of my opponents. Each match will feature one of the experimental teams versus one of the established ones. Stunty matches tend to go quickly - it should be possible to play a couple in about an hour.
If the coach is only up for one game, then I will just play an established roster against his experimental one. I don't plan to play any experimental teams against each other - the data gathered from that would be difficult to use. This way, it should be possible to have the Protoelves play against a variety of established teams.
I don't expect anybody else to do this, but I figured that this tournament is fairly loosely structured and that anything that I can do to improve play testing shouldn't be a problem.
After Evo's comment about poorly designed test rosters, I went ahead and glanced over the rosters of the established teams. Most of them seem adequate to my casual glance, but I did notice a few problems.
1. Snotlings should have heroes substituted for the spore flingers.
2. A squig team should probably start out with at least 5 RR. Any brand new Squig team with 4 OFAB players on the field is going to self destruct. I would recommend replacing both squigs and single hopper with herders. Also, drop one herder. This gives enough cash for two more RR and 10k in the bank.
3. Same thing with the Strigoyan team. Substitute two thrallings for vamplings and drop a single point of FF in order to get another RR. A brand new Strig team with 5 OFAB players on the field is very likely to self destruct.
By the way, Hunter, I think that you've done very well with all of this stunty playtesting. You came up with a good idea and you have made it happen. I've found you to be very responsive to our feedback. Your posts have been respectful of others opinions. Sure, this whole setup may not be perfect, but rather few things in life are. Good job. |
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celas
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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| Posted:
Apr 04, 2005 - 05:43 |
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I think it would be a good idea to have a thread with all the results and coaches comments so those who are not as familiar with the experimental testing can see a thread labeled "Stunty Playtesting." I can probably just copy and paste the results from hunters site or maybe he could forward them to me. I think this whole project is a ton of work so if anyone else can volunteer to help with these others issues that would be excellent. |
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Northern Wastes League |
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Dooby
Joined: Nov 22, 2003
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| Posted:
Apr 04, 2005 - 14:09 |
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Yeah Celas has the right idea. I might start a thread called Skink playtesting new teams or something like that. In that thread I will post all my game comments in full. I don't have a problem sending Hunter an e-mail but I don't reallylike to be abridged or summarised.
that way I can play any experimental team and it wont impinge on Hunters thing.
So come on, think you have a team worthy to play me like a circus team or something, I say bring it on dudes! |
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hunter
Joined: Aug 11, 2003
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Apr 04, 2005 - 18:02 |
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origami- that is a spectacular plan. Also, you are correct in that the playtesting is somewhat loose, and allows much room for playing beyond the round robin schedule. My hope is that the participants will play the scheduled round robin matches as well as any additional matches- like I've said before, the more data and input we have, the better!
The prototypical rosters that I selected for the existing races were from the team database and specifically selected based on my subjective opinion of popularity as well as level of FF. Since the new teams generally have higher FF, I wanted to have even existing rosters in that regard. You brought up some very good points, however, and I will make some changes to those rosters that you mentioned. I will also check the others in more detail to see if they could be tweaked a bit.
Oh, and thanks for the vote of confidence- I surely appreciate it! But, my efforts worthless without volunteers such as yourself, so let me again express my gratitude to all who have helped and continue to help with this project.
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I think it would be a good idea to have a thread with all the results and coaches comments so those who are not as familiar with the experimental testing can see a thread labeled "Stunty Playtesting."
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Thanks for helping out, celas- I'm sure this will facilitate community knowledge of the project as it progresses. I will forward you all the playtesting information I receive (coaches: please e-mail or PM me the results... this remains the best way for me to compile information and use it to update the website... thanks!).
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I don't have a problem sending Hunter an e-mail but I don't reallylike to be abridged or summarised.
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I see you started your thread- nice work Dooby. I'm going to post the reports I get from people on the website as verbatum as possible, so hopefully I won't be abridging or summarizing too much. I'm trying my best to be as objective as possible throughout this process, so that in the end we essentially have a report to present to the FUMBBL community for collective subjective review. When I write the report, I may have to summarize comments, so what I'll do is send the report to all participants first to ask for reviews and changes. Once it has been reviewed and accepted by the participating coaches, I'll post it on the forums here.
Playtest away!
Regards
~hunter |
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