danielcollins
Joined: Apr 04, 2005
|
 Posted:
Apr 07, 2005 - 10:03 |
 
|
I've seen lot's of people writing about different things being broken.
Specifically DP and/or fouling and of course the chaos combinations of rsc and claw etc.
Lots of people complaining fit into two categories. Firstly there are the elf players who can't keep teams together. Secondly there are the bash teams who can't get elves to play them.
Is it possibly the elven teams which are low AV and high in price who need to be fixed. I can remember reading a comment from jervis about this somewhere.
To support this I don't notice too many complaints from Skaven, or human coaches. I am finding my amazon team much easier to maintain than a High Elf team. I know Amazons have dodge but they are also lower AV. BUT mainly they are CHEAPER.
Enough from me what do others think? |
|
|
SnakeSanders
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
|
| Posted:
Apr 07, 2005 - 10:16 |
|
well... the main reasoning for this is that its an open league. you can cherrypick (races) your way to the top so you can take skills that will speed that progression, DP for more cas on fouls = more FF = more money
DP only becomes a problem when there are more than one or 2 on the roster. The vast majority of coaches dont take DP on more than 2 players
The same applies to Chaos and a lesser extent skaven, except that some coaches go crazy on the Claw/RSC combo. Personally i have one myself but i wouldnt consider many more. In the 350,000 matches that have been played here, they wouldnt suggest that RSC/Claw and DP werent that bad, except when used in excess. You would rarely find these teams in tabletop leagues because you cant cherrypick as much
IMHO the prices dont really need changing that much, perhaps gutters could be increased by 10k they are that good! Having said that, there are plenty of teams and its open, you dont have to play a RSC loaded team if you dont want to, despite what your would be oponnent says |
|
|
Cloggy
Joined: Sep 23, 2004
|
| Posted:
Apr 07, 2005 - 10:17 |
|
| Quote: | | Secondly there are the bash teams who can't get elves to play them. |
The bash team you are referring to don't just have a problem getting games with elves. I wish people would stop whining about their killer chaos teams not getting games. I simply is no fun at all to play the multiple C/RSC/PO + 3 dp guys, even if you have orcs/dwarves. I get games with bashy teams vs elves. Why? I don't play chaos and I don't get dp. Sometimes I win, sometimes I lose, but they are very fun games because of the difference in abilities between the teams.
So, want to play against elves with bashies? Just give them a chance of survival and loads of elf coaches will play. I you want play the ultra bashers against AV7 teams and giggle your ass off because you emptied the pitch, do it in stand alone mode. You don't need an opponent for that.
Ermm. Wow what a ramble  . (executive summary:) It's the skills that are broken because they have too much impact on the gameplay, not elves. |
|
|
heinz
Joined: Mar 24, 2004
|
| Posted:
Apr 07, 2005 - 10:20 |
|
this horse is dead as the pope, and neither have regenerate  |
_________________
#fumbbl_academy - the old school alternative | #bloodlust - FUMBBL's first Vampire chat |
|
danielcollins
Joined: Apr 04, 2005
|
| Posted:
Apr 07, 2005 - 10:51 |
|
it it were dead this thread would not exist. |
|
|
heinz
Joined: Mar 24, 2004
|
| Posted:
Apr 07, 2005 - 10:57 |
|
lol |
_________________
#fumbbl_academy - the old school alternative | #bloodlust - FUMBBL's first Vampire chat |
|
Laviak
Joined: Jul 19, 2004
|
| Posted:
Apr 07, 2005 - 11:31 |
|
| Quote: | | it it were dead this thread would not exist. |
Proof I tell you, it's proof that the pope still lives!!! |
|
|
danielcollins
Joined: Apr 04, 2005
|
| Posted:
Apr 07, 2005 - 15:16 |
|
its not meant to be the same as other threads of this type (I don't want to start an endless argument).
Just saying if you made elves a little cheaper would this solve the problem? |
|
|
Laviak
Joined: Jul 19, 2004
|
| Posted:
Apr 07, 2005 - 15:19 |
|
i think that if you made elves cheaper, they would dominate in games against bashers, at least .. based on TR they would. on the other hand, i guess they're usually missing one or 2 players, so it might even out overall.
[note: i haven't really thought about it all that carefully .. just my first impression of the situation] |
|
|
Tor_AlKir
Joined: Oct 10, 2003
|
| Posted:
Apr 07, 2005 - 15:28 |
|
I think you bring a new angle to an old argument Danny boy. I've mired and muck through plenty of threads about this subject and it never occured to me that elves may be over-priced. You certainly get a good deal for your money (AV Excluded). I don't know if that will solve the elf v dwarf/Khemri/RSC/Claw issue. It will just make it easier for an elf team to recover. With cheaper players and an Elf team still steering clear of the bashers then you may run into a team developing way way too fast. As it is they have little trouble in the SPP collection game.
I'm a purist and an Elf coach thru and thru. I have no trouble playing bashy teams except for the fact that they tend be lead by coaches who's only way to win is to maim your team first then troupe down the field. I dont mind having to battle a cage but play ball...nuff said. |
|
|
Ash
Joined: Feb 03, 2004
|
| Posted:
Apr 07, 2005 - 15:36 |
|
| brownrob wrote: | | You would rarely find these teams in tabletop leagues because you cant cherrypick as much |
Wrong... you would rarely find these teams in tabletop leagues because of statistics...
Online league as bloodbowl give the opportunity to have A LOT of team and A LOT of game. So you ve A LOT of skill roll and the opportunity to make deadly combo more often than in tabletop league.
It s the same with STR 4 AG 5 wardancer/witche... you can see some here... who have seen one in tabletop league? all about statistics... |
_________________
Ash |
|
Tinkywinky
Joined: Aug 25, 2003
|
| Posted:
Apr 07, 2005 - 15:37 |
|
My experience from the large scheduled Swedish league is that the problem in the long run is multiple dp:s not the claw armed guys. The lead killing teams all employ multiple dp:s and make more than half of their casualties using them even if they have lots of claws. +2 on injury on a player of your choice is just way to good when you can it over and over (and you can if you have a deep bench).
I like the vault fouling rules, it allows for more fouling but less deadly (expelled on doubles on armour or injury, dp is +1/+1). The nice thing with these rules is that it is often worthwhile to foul without dp and I find it bad that you pretty much only can make good use of fouling with dp in the lrb. |
_________________
Do you play ranked and wonder where all the good coaches are? Are you also from Sweden? Then join the Swedish league! |
|
SixFootDwarf
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
|
| Posted:
Apr 07, 2005 - 16:25 |
|
Dirty player is by far the scourge of the game, as it is now. I play rough and I foul sometimes, but +2/+2 is just TOO much. With assists it's almost ALWAYS gonna go on the injury roll. It should either be +1/+1 or go to the (shutters at the very thought) Vault rule on fouling. It's just too easy not to get caught nowadays. At worst it's a 4+, if the other guy decides to not retaliate, and the new Get the Ref makes a Dirty almost mandatory. Granted this version is a LOT better than the higher FF team getting him.
Elves could do with being a little cheaper, in an environment like this anyway. 70k for an unskilled, AV7 puke is just crazy...even if he's got AG4. But FUMBBL isn't the be-all, end-all of Blood Bowl and you can't expect the BBRC to cater to our version of the game. Our version being unlimited game potential, with the ability to pick and choose your opponents at will. The Ruling Council has a lot more to think about than just that. (And they SHOULD think about more) They need to consider the tournament ramifications, how any little change will affect overall balance, and mostly importantly adhere to the SPIRIT of the game. Not the old "it's called BLOOD Bowl for a reason" crap, but the fact that Elves are Elves, Dwarves are Dwarves, etc. Sometimes things/teams/players just aren't equal! (Take Dwarves, for example....we're just BETTER. No need to complain...it just IS. hehe)
What FUMBBL is is a perpetually running, monster-sized Beta test for the game. Any rule they make we can instantly run like 300 games a DAY to find any little weakness it has, then exploit the living hell out of it. People have been fouling for ages, but it now just seems that it's getting out of hand with the +2 thing when you have a GOOD chance of not getting caught. I'd say either weaken it to +1, or make it easier to get caught...with a leaning to towards the latter. But DP is really the only way for an Elf team to deal with a nasty Claw/RSC player. Problem is that Claw/RSC team has more DPs than anyone...cuz they're punks. They know people want to hurt 'em, and tool up to prevent it.
So what I mean to say is....ummmm.....ahhhhh.......forget it.
6 |
|
|
Azurus
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
|
| Posted:
Apr 07, 2005 - 17:03 |
|
I think dan is right, in a way.
Elves (and zons, norse, skaven to a lesser extent) will always have trouble keeping a team together.
I don't think it's REALLY because of open leagues, or scheduled leagues, or DP, or whatever. It's because they're elves. Elves are expensive players who are individually very good, but are a little on the fragile side.
They were designed that way.
Personally, I'd like to have a game where making sure they die a lot isn't the only way to make them balanced. I'd like for all teams to be able to compete evenly AND survive in the long term, but that's impossible without a major redesign.
So, for the moment, I'll just put up with the fact that 'elves must die a lot to be balanced' is part of the design philosophy of the game and get on with it. |
_________________
*This is a public safety announcement. Azurus is a cynical, sarcastic idiot. Please ignore any and everything he may say. Thank you for your attention.* |
|
danielcollins
Joined: Apr 04, 2005
|
| Posted:
Apr 07, 2005 - 17:04 |
|
Six Foot Dwarf makes a good point. The rules are not really designed for such a league as fumbbl.
Maybe some change to elves could go in DivX as it's not really being used for too much for other worthwhile things. I was thinking maybe they need a cheaper player (like 0-4 halflings) just to keep the numbers up. If it works well some players might like it better. |
|
|
|
|
Roster Tiers
Search
