| Poll |
| How much work does the Chaos Renegade concept team need? |
| None - it's perfect! |
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24% |
[ 21 ] |
| Almost there (please state suggested improvements) |
|
29% |
[ 26 ] |
| Needs a lot of work (please state suggested changes) |
|
11% |
[ 10 ] |
| Bleagh! Scrap it and start again! |
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11% |
[ 10 ] |
| Forget the whole idea of Chaos Renegades |
|
22% |
[ 20 ] |
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| Total Votes : 87 |
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SnakeSanders
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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 Posted:
Apr 12, 2005 - 22:17 |
 
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never mind the chaos humans  Slann Slann Slann!!!
only kidding, i love this roster, probably even more so than the vault nurgle roster |
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TheLegend
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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| Posted:
Apr 12, 2005 - 22:37 |
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I have a great distaste for skills being chosen randomly, choosing your skills and developing your players is one of the most important aspects of this game. I voted to banish this idea to the neather-realms, but will none the less provide some constructive criticism on the idea.
| Colin wrote: |
| Code: |
0-4 Chaos Warriors 5 4 3 9 (G,S,M) 100k
0-4 Mutants 6 3 3 8 Mark of Chaos (G,M) 60k
0-12 Thugs 6 3 3 8 (G,M) 50k
0-2 Mutant Runners 7 3 3 7 Mark of Chaos, Dodge (G,A,M) 70k
0-1 Troll or Minotaur (or Ogre - I'll remove this comment and the brackets when I'm convinced it's a good idea).
RR 70k |
|
This team seems to be way over the top for a number of reasons.
1) mark of chaos seems way too strong without a working associated cost. If MoC is left as is, Mutants should be 70k.
2) The team has too many positional players. A team could be made that never ever fields a lineman (thug)
2a) Warrior allocation should be 0-2
or
2b) Runners should be removed
or
2c) Both, but allow 0-6 mutants and give them strength or agility or both access(my favorite option as the mutants the heart of the team).
3) At least fluff-wise, thugs should not have mutation access. Balance-wise... thhe team may be more in line with the rest of the teams if the thugs didn't have M access... but I'm not quite convinced of this.
4) The team should not be allowed an ogre.
| Quote: |
CHAOS RENEGADE TEAM SPECIAL RULES
Mark of Chaos - Players with the Mark of Chaos are particularly susceptible to the warping power of Chaos. After having rolled for an Improvement, instead of choosing a normal skill a Mutant may choose to take a random Mutation. Simply roll a D10 on the following table: 1) Big Hand, 2) Claw, 3) Extra Arms, 4) Foul Appearance, 5) Hypnotic Gaze, 6) Horns, 7) Prehensile Tail, 8 ) Tentacles 9) Two Heads, 10) Very Long Legs. Note that if you choose to roll on this table, you must accept the result.
Renegades - Every society has its drifters, low-lifes and ne'er-do-wells, of almost every race. This is just as true of Blood Bowl players - such players flock to play for Chaos Renegade teams, mainly because nobody else would have them, but inevitably they move on after one game, so can never be hired permanently.
When hiring Mercenaries as Inducements (see page xx), the Chaos Team counts as having a 0-1 allowance of the following players: Beastman, Orc Lineman, Norse Lineman, Dark Elf Lineman, Goblin, Hobgoblin, Minotaur, Skaven Lineman, Troll.
This team is also being discussed on these forum threads:
http://www.specialist-games.com/bloodbowl/forum_b/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=4514
http://www.talkbloodbowl.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=14943 |
We do not need another @#$%ing pact team!
Oh, and just for the record...if I had designed this roster it would look like this:
0-4 Chaos Warriors 5 4 3 9 MoC (S,G,M) 110
0-4 Mutants (the same but 70k)
0-12 Thugs (the same but no M access)
0-1 Minotaur or Troll
mark of chaos:
After making a skill roll a player may choose to discard that roll and roll 1d6 on one of the following tables instead. The player must announce which table he is rolling on before rolling the dice
table a:
1 or dupicate skill: no skill
2: Claw
3: Tentacles
4: Prehensile Tail
5: Horns
6: Thick Skull
table b:
1 or duplicate skill: no skill
2: Big Hand
3: Very Long Legs
4: Extra Arms
5. Two Heads
6. Foul Appearance |
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EvolveToAnarchism
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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| Posted:
Apr 12, 2005 - 23:16 |
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Re: Hating Randomly chosen skills.
It's nice to hear an opposing opinion. But some other coaches might be interested in something more chaotic and fun. Plus, you should always have the option of not rolling (and doing exactly what you think is most important) and choose a normal skill. So, yes, this might not be the style of team for all coaches, but then again, you have 20+ other rosters to choose from. I don't understand the venom towards the idea of someone enjoying and having fun with an aspect of team management you dislike.
Re: Lots of positionals
I think there are too many positionals on this roster. But I think if a new team is going to be added, it should add something truly new to Blood Bowl. I think the mutation aspect should be played up rather than emphasizing positionals as per standard rosters. If there's ever a team that shouldn't play by the normal rules, it's a Chaos team.
Re: Mutations
I like random mutations and think others might as well. But another possible approach would be to play up the Mutants and give them unrestricted access to mutations on a normal roll. This would make them the focus of the team and the team would truly unique.
Re: Renegades
Extra rules that only really come into play when significant inducements are involved. I don't think it's worth bloating the roster for such little value added. I think the Renegade/Allied/Pact rules/idea could be better to use by another rosters. I'm certain this idea could be put to much better use than the old experimental "Pact" teams.
My advice, keep it simple and focused. If you want a Chaos Mutant team, focus on the Mutation rules. If you want a Chaos Renegade team, focus on the Renegades. BB rosters tend not to focus on lots of differnt things (Norse = Block, Amazon = Dodge, Beastman = Horns etc.). I think if you pick a narrow focus and stick with it, the roster would have a more coherent feel and be more likely to be approved by Jervis. |
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Colin
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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| Posted:
Apr 12, 2005 - 23:35 |
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Thanks go to The Legend and Evo for some good points.
On random mutations being too strong - the current Chaos team has Beastmen that all start with a (pretty good) mutation for the same price as the Mutants, and the team will likely end up with a few more mutations anyway, as everyone can get them. Add this to the fact that the current Chaos all have Strength access, and you might reconsider how strong random mutations really are, especially with only General skills to back them up. Evo hit the nail on the head, though - I want this team to be different in every single team sheet, rather than the boringly similar Chaos teams we currently have. He is also right to identify Mark of Chaos as the central core of this team - I mainly invented the roster as a means of using it.
I could live with Thugs being unable to mutate, though again, they do compare poorly to Beastmen.
On positionals - If some have to go, I'll push for it to be 2 CWs. The focus should be on the mutants, and I like teams with only 2 Str 4 guys - Necros, for me, are a superbly balanced and fluffy roster. The Runners can always be tweaked (say, lose Dodge for the same price) - as I said, these guys aren't even close to Experimental yet, and we've seen Exp teams changed more drastically than this roster likely needs. I'm also not keen on the Ogre (hence the disclaimer).
The Renegade Freebooters idea was a throw-away idea I stuck in for the fluff hell of it, as it would be (deliberately) of minimal impact. In the interests of reducing bloat, I'd happily throw it out, though, especially to maintain focus on Mark of Chaos as Evo suggested. |
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Primetime
Joined: Mar 23, 2004
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| Posted:
Apr 13, 2005 - 01:32 |
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Great team concept, I always liked the Chaos Thugs, they were first ever GW miniatures I bought (a long long time ago).
Just thought I'd post a couple of ideas that popped into my head about the roster:
Why not make the Mark of Chaos the only way for the mutants to choose skills and do something like this:
2d10 roll whenever mutant gains a skill
2 = +ST
3 = +AG
4 = +MA
5 = Extra Arms
6 = Prehensile Tail
7 = Big Hand
8 = Horns
9 = Foul Appearance
10= Agility skill
11= General skill
12= Strength skill
13= Thick skull
14= Claw
15 = Very Long Legs
16= Tentacles
17 = Two Heads
18 = +MA
19 = +AG
20= +ST
Too complicated? Not sure how this should affect player costs, but it would lead to a fair amount of chaos.
I also agree that there seem to be too many positionals. How about dropping it to 0-2 chaos warriors and leave the mutant runners out entirely?
That way the mutants would become the freaky core of the team backed up by a couple of warriors with a gang of thugs in support. |
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Tinkywinky
Joined: Aug 25, 2003
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| Posted:
Apr 16, 2005 - 08:41 |
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Some posters overestimate the mutants a lot. Just give up on the thugs and make all the linemen mutants. A random mutation isn't even close to as good as the access to guard/MB that beastmen get. This would make the team more fun and truly chaotic. You can even add the mark of chaos rule to the chaos warriors making it a team rule. Choosing a random mutation instead of block/guard/MB for your warriors will make them worse more often than not. |
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Jinxed
Joined: Jul 04, 2004
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| Posted:
Apr 16, 2005 - 09:11 |
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Hmm, a random mutation as a skill UNLESS you roll a double perhaps? (then 'normal' rules apply)
The roster would need some work but it sure sounds very interesting and truly chaotic! |
_________________
Nuffle sucks |
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Vero
Joined: Dec 30, 2003
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| Posted:
Apr 16, 2005 - 10:48 |
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| Jinxed wrote: | Hmm, a random mutation as a skill UNLESS you roll a double perhaps? (then 'normal' rules apply)
The roster would need some work but it sure sounds very interesting and truly chaotic! |
Isn't it like that?
| Colin wrote: | | ...After having rolled for an Improvement, instead of choosing a normal skill a Mutant may choose to take a random Mutation... |
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xlars
Joined: May 12, 2004
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| Posted:
Apr 16, 2005 - 11:37 |
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I really like the team. about the random mutations, dont think hypnotic gaze is a mutation, RSC on the other hand is missing... looking forward to seing the team in ranked!
/XL |
_________________
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Jinxed
Joined: Jul 04, 2004
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| Posted:
Apr 16, 2005 - 12:04 |
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@Vero; no, what I meant is an automatic random mutation with the choice ONLY going to the coach if a double is rolled! |
_________________
Nuffle sucks |
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Colin
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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| Posted:
Apr 16, 2005 - 13:00 |
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I think Jinxed has it - Mutants, after having rolled for an Improvement, may choose either a skill as normal, a stat bonus if the required 10+ roll came up, or instead opt for a random mutation. A mutation or non-General skill may be chosen on a double, just as, say, a Skaven lineman could (to use the example of a similar Gen-access only player who can mutate).
| Tinkywinky wrote: | Some posters overestimate the mutants a lot.
A random mutation isn't even close to as good as the access to guard/MB that beastmen get. |
I agree, as previously mentioned:
| Colin wrote: | | On random mutations being too strong - the current Chaos team has Beastmen that all start with a (pretty good) mutation for the same price as the Mutants, and the team will likely end up with a few more mutations anyway, as everyone can get them. Add this to the fact that the current Chaos all have Strength access, and you might reconsider how strong random mutations really are, especially with only General skills to back them up. |
Mark of Chaos on Chaos Warriors - that would be rather too good, I think. All linemen as mutants? They can still mutate on a double, so I think that would be enough. I want a few mutants in the team, not a team of mutants. |
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Wizard
Joined: Jul 09, 2004
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| Posted:
Apr 16, 2005 - 13:11 |
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I really like the random mutation rules - makes the team mre chaosy
But i dont understand why a "traditionaly bash" team has a positional that starts with dodge?
Its wierd enough on the undead roster... |
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Colin
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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| Posted:
Apr 16, 2005 - 13:19 |
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In the original Chaos All-Stars fluff, it never mentioned that they were particularly bashy, just...unusual:
http://www.blood-bowl.net/ChaosAllStars/ChaosAllStars.html
Mind you, Ghouls never featured in the original Champions of Death fluff either (they were actually more like the Khemri than the Undead). Unfortunately, the 3rd edition of BB was created with a lot of borrowing from the Warhammer edition of the time. It would be more hassle than it's worth to go back and redo all the rosters. People would get very upset.
Besides, I think BB has plenty of bashy rosters, and needs some more teams in the middle-ground, like Necros, Vampires, and Lizardmen. They make for a more interesting playstyle. |
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Tinkywinky
Joined: Aug 25, 2003
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| Posted:
Apr 24, 2005 - 12:26 |
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| Quote: | | Mark of Chaos on Chaos Warriors - that would be rather too good, I think. All linemen as mutants? They can still mutate on a double, so I think that would be enough. I want a few mutants in the team, not a team of mutants. |
Only bad coaches would take mutations all over the board, block and guard are so much better than a random mutation that it is ridicilous. |
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Colin
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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| Posted:
Apr 24, 2005 - 18:31 |
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I'm pleased you agree with me that random mutations aren't better than Strength skill access - my main concern is having random mutations as well as Str 4 and Strength skill access; mind you, I am happy to have two players on the team combining random mutations with Agility skills.
If there were only a maximum of two Chaos Warriors on the team, I would object less - those two players would be required to do a lot of the blocking and Guarding on the team, and if a coach wants to risk a random mutation (no doubt praying for Claw), they can go ahead. It's true that Chaos Warriors with Big Hands or Two Heads would be very fun and unusual, as well as startlingly effective players, but of course they would need their Block and Guard, too. They may pick up a mutation on a double anyway.
With 0-4 Chaos Warriors, I'd be against any of them having Mark of Chaos - one or two will almost certainly mutate, and when you have 0-4 players, you can afford to specialise them anyway. I want the main specialists on the team to be the Mutants.
I am trying to definitively decide how many Chaos Warriors to allow on the team - at the moment, I favour 0-2 only, and see how they go in playtesting. If they prove to be too weak, incremental improvements could be added (including Mark of Chaos on the Warriors) until they are 'just right'.
Another thing that has excited me is the new Human team - if we could get a Chaos Renegades team out, the possibilities of a multi-part kit with optional mutations would be tremendous. I'm certain it would sell brilliantly, not least because you'd need a 30-man squad of miniatures to cover most of the possible permutations! I'm certain some Human coaches would want such a kit also, to do a regular Human team with a Chaotic appearance. House-rules team coaches would love them too. |
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