Shepherd
Joined: Oct 28, 2004
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 Posted:
Apr 13, 2005 - 19:55 |
 
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There's no way to say this nicely, so I'll just toss it out there and see what people think.
I was reading one of the Endless Fouling Threads (this one at the SG site), and there was the usual two-pronged argument: Side One saying that fouling could be crass and anti-fun, and Side Two saying that fouling was part of the game and if you don't like it, don't play.
Which got me thinking about why I stopped playing most online games.
Which has led to this rather long ramble about fouling.
See, there's an all-too-common breed of gamer called the "Spawn Camper." The name sources from back in the days when online first-person shooters would have a very limited number of places to be "reborn" when you are killed, called a "spawn point." A "spawn camper" just positions himself near that point, but in a hard-to-see location, waits for you to get "reborn," and shoots you before you have a chance to defend yourself. And again. And again. And again. You'd lose a game 16-0 because you just didn't ever have a chance to shoot.
Increasingly sophisticated games have made spawn camping pretty much redundant -- there are now dozens upon dozens of spawn points in most games, and most of them have a few seconds of invulnerability when you respawn to get you to at least get the camper to aim a bit.
But it's become sort of an epithet. And every game has its own breed of "campers" these days. These are the kids that spend 48 hours working out the exact location of every weapon on a map, knowing exactly which points to hit in what order, and exactly which "soft" parts of the map can be exploited.
Campers, see, aren't breaking the rules. The aren't hacking the game. They aren't "cheating." They've just found a point-of-least-resistance way to do maximum damage with minimum risk.
Unfotunately, the long-term effect of campers on online gaming is to reduce it to single denominators. You can only beat campers by getting to their spots first and shooting them... and camping. So you wind up taking a massively complex and fascinating game and reducing it to who-can-get-to-the-sniper's-perch first, or who-can-get-the-Redeemer-first. And the game, for me, loses most of its joy. Because it's not playing any more. It's competing.
There's a reason I'd rather play soccer with my pals than train for the 100-meter dash. It's because I want to play. And camper games just reduce any game to the single most effective goal and the single most effective method to get what you want as fast as possible.
That's what bothers me about heavy fouling. It's not that it's "broken" as much as that the only long-term way to deal with heavy-foul teams is, as the foulers like to say, "well foul me back, then." But then it's not a game any more. It's a competition to see who can foul the most the fastest.
I loved playing Starcraft before it became nothing but Zerg rushes. I loved playing Diablo II before it became a Race To The Chest At The End Of Each Dungeon. I loved playing UT2004 before it became a Race To The Redeemer. I still enjoy all these games, but I play them a lot less than I used to because somebody, somewhere, broke it down to an equation. Here is what I do to win the most games. And then they just repeat their mathematical equation over and over and over again, somehow deriving satisfaction by beating people through formulae rather than through the skillfull and creative exploration of an interesting and complex system.
To my mind, right now, excessive fouling = camping. It's not a "fun" way to play, it's just brutally effective. Excessive fouling means your idea of fun is to win through repetitive exploitation of a soft point in the game, rather than through the skillful and creative exploration of the possibilities of Blood Bowl.
If DP did not exist, and there were no fouling, then the campers would manifest another way, and there'd be Infinite Threads About AG4 Passes or something like that. I don't know what the #2 exploit of Blood Bowl is (although I suspect it's dwarves). But the campers will camp. That's what they do. It's what they enjoy. I don't get it, but I can't stop it.
Anyway, I just thought I'd try to throw out some more articulate philosophy about why too much fouling sucks rather than the standard "it's not nice" or "it's not sportsmanlike." It's more damaging to BB than non-nice, and it's worse than not-sportsmanlike. It's reductive. It reduces the game from one with a million factors to one with one factor: fouling.
That's why I don't like it. |
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Lonewolf
Joined: Apr 11, 2005
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Apr 13, 2005 - 20:09 |
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I like your viewpoint , campers are annoying and do tend to make great games dull. However im not convinced that the term can be applied to fouling. i have to admit im part of the eternal view that its part of the game and deal with it, but i wouldnt say that it reduces the game to number crunching any more than you would select your player with dodge to run through the lines rather than the one without.
If you look at it from the background point of view a players been told to take out that big guy and makes sure he stays down. the risk to the coach is the loss of a player if he gets sent off. A smart coach fouls with a less valuable player. a stupid coach uses his strongest because its more likely to work. its all about balancing the risks. Admitedly thats number crunching and when you boil it down the whole game is probability.
But no one can predict the dice. that will always be the point of the game. |
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Darkwolf
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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Apr 13, 2005 - 20:10 |
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I agree with most of your points. When PO was broken I did not take it. I knew it was broken, I experienced it broken, I knew the rules would change. Coaches here took miles and miles of PO. Brothermarius is an example. They worked and worked that skill into oblivion. I avoided taken more than one big guy with PO and avoided playing teams with massive PO. Except of course in tourny's when you had to face who you had to face.
I have never taking DP on more than one player with a team. I know it is a bit broken. Fouling is ALOT better than in 3rd edition, but it is still very deadly a times. Again, coaches here work this skill into oblivion and show why it has to be changed. Most of these coaches then take their dp heavy teams in fumbbl smack and other tourny's where u dont have the choice.
Unfortunetly, most of these "campers" come from a certain continent and are giving, sometimes their respected country a bad rep. If their was a skill that automatically KILLED a player when you blocked, these coaches would give it to every player they could. Afterall, the name of the game is 'blood' bowl right?
I will always take the high road here, not exploit st, tr formulas, pick on noobs, or exploit broken rules or tactics. I worry about my actions and my behaviour only, and not others. I avoid exploiters, campers, etc. I dont play these coaches, I encourage others not to play them as well.
I see the game evolving and expanding all the time. Always be people/coaches that cannot moderate or control themselves. |
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Macavity
Joined: Nov 23, 2004
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Apr 13, 2005 - 20:21 |
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DonKosak
Joined: Apr 06, 2004
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Apr 13, 2005 - 20:22 |
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You're right Shepherd.
The ultimate camper-example for me was when someone told me, that you can download a "Pindleskin-bot" for DiabloII. The Pindleskin-bot allows you to kill the monster Pindleskin zillions of times and collect whatever treasure he drops - you don't even have to play the game - the bot does it for you... Nuts if you ask me.... |
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BadMrMojo
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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Apr 13, 2005 - 20:22 |
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| Lonewolf wrote: | | I like your viewpoint , campers are annoying and do tend to make great games dull. However im not convinced that the term can be applied to fouling. |
I think the point he's trying to make applies to the "fouling arms race*" rather than any individual play. Just my interpretation.
* Fouling Arms Race - the self-perpetuating cycle of the perceived need to foul in order to maintain competitive. The same thing has been said about big guys but that has been mitigated somewhat by the new WA and the lack of G access, IMO. |
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Schalburg
Joined: Feb 12, 2004
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Apr 13, 2005 - 20:23 |
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Whats this nonesense about continents Darkwolf? As far as i can see the usage of DP's isnt restricted to one. But i have to agree with you in part. DP is overpowered and speaking for myself i recently took it up after being fed up with Chaos and Orc teams etc. booting the crap out of my players. Maybe its wrong, what do I know? But little do i care I play to win and if a DP can help me accomplish that then so be it. |
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Macavity
Joined: Nov 23, 2004
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Apr 13, 2005 - 20:33 |
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| Schalburg wrote: | | Whats this nonesense about continents Darkwolf? |
Darkwolf has this thing about N.A. being one country..... I've never figured it out, but the Bombers RULE! |
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When I became a man I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up. -C.S. Lewis |
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Freshmetal_
Joined: Jan 21, 2005
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Apr 13, 2005 - 20:40 |
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Hi,
I like your take on the subject Shepherd.
I'm divided on the fouling subject. I can see the use of having a single player on your team with DP to intimidate your opponents, but the number of teams around with about 4 or 5 DPs in is silly. In the end however, you can always just decline a challenge (except tourneys obviously) or concede if an opponent starts needlessly fouling.
I never berate an opponent if they foul a powerful Big Guy, or a player who might be able to get up and stop a TD, but just fouling random players annoys me (especially when they say stuff like "spp's are spp's!" afterwards). Like all other online games, I play for the tactical challenge, not just to prove that I'm "better" than everyone else...
Although I am.
Cheers,
Freshmetal |
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freak_in_a_frock
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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Apr 13, 2005 - 20:48 |
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This is probably the most impressive post i have ever ready on the topic of fouling, it says exactly what i feel about the whole thing.
When i played Ultima Online, i was happy leveling up by adventuring, moving form place to place earning what little experiance i could, and generally enjoying the whole setting. Then someone showed me a 'quick' way to train your character up, so that you could have a top rated avatar in a few weeks rather than a few months, it required staying in one place hitting practice dummies for hour upon hour.
It worked well, but about 6-7 gameplay hours into doing this i realised how boring and pathetic the whole thing was, and somehow it destroyed the whole Ultima world for me, so i gave up on it. This is why i avoid playing habitual foulers. Not because i have a problem losing players, and most definatly not because i think it is unfair, but it just reduces the whole game to numbers and dice, with no finesse and excitment.
I now play online very rarely, not because of the fouling, but because of the bad atmosphere that all this fouling generates, too many people accusing each other of stupid things, coaches quitting mid-game due to bad sportsmanship and constant bitching about luck. |
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Uber
Joined: Mar 22, 2004
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Apr 13, 2005 - 20:53 |
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Amazing post Shepherd, I'm another one who feels exactly like you. I think that post belongs into the user guide and I will put it there right about... now ! |
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Recovering FUMBBL addict. |
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Hoodeddwarf
Joined: Feb 15, 2005
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Apr 13, 2005 - 20:59 |
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To try and take a different angle on this argument on fouling/camping business there are interesting parallels in animal behaviour where there is a balance between birds of a certain species that make their own nests and birds of that same species who steal the nests other birds have built. In a population of birds that all build their own nests, a bird that steals nests does very well, whereas in a population full of birds that are all stealing nests there aren't enough nests and the whole system collapses. Enough about nests. Similarly in online games there appears to be a similar balance. If everyone fouled/camped the games would be won by those who camped first or fouled more successfully, the game would be intensely boring and progressively less and less people would play. Those campers/foulers require the initial good nature/sportsmanship of their opponents to succeed in what they do and achieve their goal of deriving their enjoyment of the game by winning rather than by enjoying the gameplay itself. |
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mUst
Joined: Jan 05, 2004
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Apr 13, 2005 - 20:59 |
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| Darkwolf wrote: | When PO was broken I did not take it. I knew it was broken, I experienced it broken, I knew the rules would change. Coaches here took miles and miles of PO. Brothermarius is an example. They worked and worked that skill into oblivion. I avoided taken more than one big guy with PO and avoided playing teams with massive PO. Except of course in tourny's when you had to face who you had to face.
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i call your bluff
http://fumbbl.com/FUMBBL.php?page=player&player_id=93669
http://fumbbl.com/FUMBBL.php?page=player&player_id=39800 |
Last edited by mUst on %b %13, %2005 - %21:%Apr; edited 1 time in total |
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Darkwolf
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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Apr 13, 2005 - 20:59 |
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Sure, and if they invent a skill that kills people when blocked, schallburg would be first in line to take it. After all, it would help you win. |
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http://fumbbl.com/FUMBBL.php?page=coachinfo&coach=768 |
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Shepherd
Joined: Oct 28, 2004
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Apr 13, 2005 - 21:07 |
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Just to be clear, it's excessive fouling that bothers me. If I drop your treeman in the first turn, you can expect me to get the boot in there as fast as anyone. Fouling is part of the game. But when you get into multiple DP and serial fouling, that's when you get to the "reductive" point I was mentioning -- needing your own DPs to foul back, and then it the game becomes a fouling war. The "Arms Race" that BMM mentioned above. |
_________________
A super-hero that always fails his Bonehead roll: MAN-MAN, the averagest hero alive!
Buy Dead Eyes Open, starting July 2005 from Slave Labor Graphics! |
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