Azurus
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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 Posted:
May 06, 2005 - 01:31 |
 
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It all depends on what you define fun, I suppose.
With my main teams I tend to avoid the most dangerous squads (not races, teams), because I have more fun when I actually have some players on the field. I usually don't find high-cas games (for either coach) fun, so I don't play them often.
On the other hand, I have one long-running series of teams who pride themselves on every cas they take, and they've been some of the most enjoyable games I've had. But only when I'm in the right mood for it.
I agree with Mithril, play the game how you want to. (But don't be afraid to try other ways every so often)
I'm one of those old coaches (though I was pretty quiet when I first joined). I think the biggest change is simply in numbers. These days you simply can't keep track of which coaches are fun to play unless you stick to a pretty small group. I keep forgetting who's who these days anyway.
EDIT: The other thing I've noticed is that the '2nd generation' of coaches has brought quite a few people who have never played TT onto the site (people who are 'internet gamers' rather than BB players). Unfortunately these coaches often bring (initially) the usual netmuppet mentalilty with them, though they do seem to settle down once they've been here for a while. |
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*This is a public safety announcement. Azurus is a cynical, sarcastic idiot. Please ignore any and everything he may say. Thank you for your attention.* |
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HollowOne
Joined: Sep 23, 2004
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May 06, 2005 - 02:52 |
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I'd like to make a few points:
1) Not everyone has the time to be able to play very much. Some people have jobs.
2) Building teams takes time.
3) While I can appreciate the raw masculinity and sporting spirit I would demonstrate if I accepted to play every Dwarf team that challenged my Amazons, it strikes me as an amazingly stupid and counterproductive way to maintain the team(s) that have taken me months to build considering I can only play a handful of games a week -- if that.
4) Maybe I'm not one of those coaches.
5) Get a job. |
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A censor is a man who knows more than he thinks you ought to. - Granville Hicks |
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bogh
Joined: Oct 31, 2004
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May 06, 2005 - 04:33 |
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CircularLogic
Joined: Aug 22, 2003
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May 06, 2005 - 10:11 |
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OK.. my 2 cents on this topic:
I´m one of the older coaches around (late Generation 1 or early 2). When I recall "teh good´ol times" I guess there where just more scoring teams around. People had much more fun showing off with flashy plays and interceptions instead of bashing the other team into retirement.
When the first slayer teams showed up, they found quite unsuspicious victims. Elves played those chaos, lost some of their best players but won easily and couldn´t understand, how someone could train such a bad team. It took quite a long time, before the coaches realized, that there were some bashy guys. To those, scoring a victory was only secondary - they just took thrill out of killing the opposition. This insight had a big consequence: It was the birth of game dodging which grew and transformed into cherrypicking.
So many of the coaches swung to bashy teams. It was a hightime of dwarves and orcs. They still had fun, as there weren´t so many coaches, so if there are only 5 guys on and lfg, then dodging even one of them cuz they coached dwarves reduced the your opportunities to play by ALOT, as the other 3 might look for a differen TR/TS range. But fumbbl grew and so were the choices and the teams pretty much split up in higher TR. Elves vs Elves and bashy teams vs who ever would agree to play them.
The splitup was heaven for the elf-coaches. Again they could just enjoy the fast play without a high risk of losing one of their beloved players. The cry against aging had a high time - as for those picky coaches it was the main source of injuries.
Time went by and most coaches had the impression, if they had lucky againg rolls and only play elves, they could create the ultimate team and never lose players. And suddenly there was this bad lino with a skill called Dirty Player walking up and killing their favourite Wardancer/Witchelf/Dragonwarrior with a well placed boot. OMG!! This cannot be!! I lost my beloved player because of a mean and dirty foul!! Dirty player MUST be overpowered and I will NEVER EVER play against a team with DP again -> The dodge players became hardcore dodger (just to avoid words like cowards/wimps).
At first those who avoided even a single DP were very few. But more coaches lost beloved players due to fouling and when there was a time, where everyone looked down upon a coach dodging a game because of a single skill - this time was over. I remember coming back from a break and wasn´t able to find a game because every coach dodged me for my DP. I´m not a foulhappy fag, but there are times and players, when I need a good boot to put someone reliable off the field. I´m just not that lucky to score a regular cas against an ST5 Wardancer, so when I get him down once, I have to make sure he stays down. But sadly the wimpy coaches dodging a single DP cause alot of other players not to chose DP in order to get games. And those wouldn´t play me, too, because having no DP for a potential counterfoul is always a disadvantage.
To my disgust this movement has grown and is forcing skill choices. There were times, when the first 2 nondoubles on linos were 1 kick and 1 DP. But taking DP in ranked isn´t viable anymore, because it forces your team into inactivity - and now they start to take over other divisions as well.
My disgust turned into horror, when I was faced with new excesses of this boykott movement. When you take the skill Mighty Blow on one of your elven blitzers, you suddenly decrease the pool of opponents by about 15-20% - tendency growing! I also got a challenge refused from an amazon team because I had 2 (TWO!) tackles. I can see this taking over onto elves...
Then there are some hippocrits. Just read the bold part of the team bio. It´s just laughable and also a banable offense (automatic pre-game arrangement), but nothing is done against it and it starts growing.
Well... to sum things up, what´s wrong in my opinion:
1) Fumbbl is overrun by coaches "who play for fun and not the win" - meaning the only want to kill things.
2) In response, the scoring guys refuse to play anything which could remotely harm their guys. If there weren´t the rule about pregame-arrangements, I bet we could already watch games, where coaches are forced to take push over POW.
3) There is only few middle ground so coaches have to adapt to either side. |
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petsku
Joined: Oct 11, 2003
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May 06, 2005 - 10:42 |
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Bah , too tired to read all posts , but I have to name 1 coach who fills Sinner´s category.
Odi (well, he doesn´t laugh when you kill his mino , usually he cries out for revenge) but he is anti-cherrypicker.
Now everyone GO KILL ODI`S SKAVENS!!!!!  |
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Optihut
Joined: Dec 16, 2004
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May 06, 2005 - 11:37 |
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| CircularLogic wrote: | OK.. my 2 cents on this topic:
I remember coming back from a break and wasn´t able to find a game because every coach dodged me for my DP. I´m not a foulhappy fag, but there are times and players, when I need a good boot to put someone reliable off the field. I´m just not that lucky to score a regular cas against an ST5 Wardancer, so when I get him down once, I have to make sure he stays down. But sadly the wimpy coaches dodging a single DP cause alot of other players not to chose DP in order to get games. And those wouldn´t play me, too, because having no DP for a potential counterfoul is always a disadvantage. |
Correct. I used to be beaten up by the bashy teams, because I didn't have a DP. When I got a DP, the softer teams refused to play me.
| Quote: | | Then there are some hippocrits. Just read the bold part of the team bio. It´s just laughable and also a banable offense (automatic pre-game arrangement), but nothing is done against it and it starts growing. |
Eh? That's not a pre game arrangement, that's a foul policy, albeit one I don't agree with. I don't quite get you though, first you complain about not finding games and then when people come up with something like the following that allows them to play both bashy and soft teams you complain about alleged "pre game arrangements"???:
| Quote: |
Please be aware of my foul policy: It has caused quite a few arguments after matches, hence I feel the need to point it out - you have been warned!
- I won't start fouling, unless you've got a dirty player on your roster or play one of the following teams: Khemri, Undead, Necromantic, Orc, Dwarf, Chaosdwarf, Chaos.
- dirty players will be used.
- fouling may even last till round 8 of the second half, if you annoy me. Case in point, one coach was stalling and made the TD so that I only had 1 round to go, then he set up his bull centaurs on the sides in order to prevent me from efficiently blocking. Since he had been fouling all match long, I blitzed his bull and fouled him for a niggling injury. Endless whines, threats, and complaints followed, so this foul policy came to be as a fair warning to future coaches. |
I don't think it's a pre game arrangement, as I may or may not foul at all, even when you meet my conditions for fouling. Last game against orcs, I didn't even break out the dps.
But as I said, it allows me to play both bashy and soft opponents. If the mods issue a warning, in case they agree with your - imho twisted - view what constitutes a pre game arrangement then I'll gladly take the disclaimer down (retire the dps and won't play any bashy teams at all with my av7 teams).
As it stands, I think you want it both ways - encouraging av7 teams not to have a dp, while getting them yourself. It just doesn't work this way, though and the above foul policy is the best solution to cure the game dodging dilemma imho, ymmv.
That said, I'm not going to play loaded matchups, but a dp or 2 probably won't deter me.
EDIT: Wouldn't this declaration what you're going to do count as pre-game arrangement in your book as well?
| Quote: | Players with the following skills will be hunted down at sight:
-> Claw
-> RSC
-> Block/Tackle/Mighty Blow
-> Dirty Player (to a lesser extend)
-> Piling On combined with another dmg-enhancer
Disclaimer:
This team uses all kind of dirty tricks and underhand-tactics to kill, score and survive. Last-minute hiring of stars or wizards included. You have been warned. |
EDIT#2: The bitter elves you labeled as hypocrites don't even have a DP on their roster, despite the disclaimer! |
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CircularLogic
Joined: Aug 22, 2003
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May 06, 2005 - 12:18 |
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| Optihut wrote: |
| Quote: |
Please be aware of my foul policy: It has caused quite a few arguments after matches, hence I feel the need to point it out - you have been warned!
- I won't start fouling, unless you've got a dirty player on your roster or play one of the following teams: Khemri, Undead, Necromantic, Orc, Dwarf, Chaosdwarf, Chaos.
- dirty players will be used.
- fouling may even last till round 8 of the second half, if you annoy me. Case in point, one coach was stalling and made the TD so that I only had 1 round to go, then he set up his bull centaurs on the sides in order to prevent me from efficiently blocking. Since he had been fouling all match long, I blitzed his bull and fouled him for a niggling injury. Endless whines, threats, and complaints followed, so this foul policy came to be as a fair warning to future coaches. |
I don't think it's a pre game arrangement, as I may or may not foul at all, even when you meet my conditions for fouling. Last game against orcs, I didn't even break out the dps.
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The coach in question clearly states, that he WILL NOT USE his DP until certain conditions are met.
Pregame-arrangement (in my eyes):
Whenever you agree on not using a certain option dispite being legal.
So when I tell you, what I do, there is nothing wrong.
If I tell you: "I will block!" that´s no arrangement.
But if I tell you "I won´t block!" that´s an arangement.
Concerning the DP on the bitter elves:
I don´t know what happend to him, but when I had a look at the rooster, there was a DP - I just recalled the coach to look up the link.
I for myself don´t see a problem playing against a DP, but I hate it when someone refuses to play anyone with a DP, but has a dirty player of his own, to enforce some kind of play at his opponent. ("If you foul - even without DP - I use my DP.") |
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Optihut
Joined: Dec 16, 2004
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May 06, 2005 - 13:44 |
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[quote="CircularLogic"]| Optihut wrote: |
I for myself don´t see a problem playing against a DP, but I hate it when someone refuses to play anyone with a DP, but has a dirty player of his own, to enforce some kind of play at his opponent. ("If you foul - even without DP - I use my DP.") |
Ah, ok. Agreed. Misunderstood your motivation there, my apologies. |
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Ele
Joined: May 09, 2004
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May 06, 2005 - 14:05 |
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Being the coach in question I think I have to stand up for myself. First of all I find this offensive and that is why I'm actually bothering to write for the forums for the first time (if I recall correctly). I apologize for my hard to comprehend sentences which are my trademark.
First of all my opinions. 1 - I don't like fouling much. 2 - I like to play elf games. 3 - I think DP in it's current form is broken. 4 - I think RSC in it's current form is broken. 5 - I LOVE to develop teams and THAT is the fun for me. Of course I like playing and playing for winning but team development is what I really like.
I'm not totally against fouling and playing bashy teams. But for me playing too bashy coaches is just not fun since it might negate the part which I really enjoy - team building. So I play mostly against elf and other teams that are not that heavy on mb, dp and so forth.
Claiming that I'm making pregame arrangements is proposterous in my eyes. Yes, I state my fouling policy on sligthly badly worded sentence but that doesn't mean I have EVER agreed to non-fouling, non-bashing matches. Actually the DP in that team was in the team in the first place so I could take part on Ulthuan Invitational and have a payback method and method for winning a tournament (not that it helped since I did nothing dramatic with mine and lost 4/10 players (from 8 games) to RIP and SI to DP - I do hate that skill). And after the qualifiers I still had the DP player alive and since I didn't want to continue playing that bashy way I copied my old fouling policy to explain why it was there. And that helped me get elf games I enjoy. But I also had the option to play some a bit more bashier games for change.
Since ranked for me and hopefully my opponent is playing for fun I try to be a nice opponent so my opponents also have nice time. I don't stall unless stalled upon. I don't blitz that much with mb when apo gone. And I don't normally foul unless fouled upon(NOTICE: My DP policy is different from my other fouling policy which is that I might do it sometimes if it wins me a game). I also have respect for some coaches and choose not to blitz and block their players on last turns if the game is decided and/or I have 2 injuries for + ff throw. I have no quarrels if they don't do those same things to me. I consider myself a "gentleman" player but I also have my bad days and I do have some bashy teams to went out my frustrations.
I think that this sort of "attack" on me is uncalled for and something I did not expect from CircularLogic who I respect as player. I do NOT make pregame arrangements and you can ask anyone I have played if I have. I also THINK and hope I have not broken any rules which I have actually mostly read. I would hope some reply/explanation to this message from CircularLogic either on this thread or by PM.
PS. To Sinner and other people who complain about cherrypicking: I have read this thread quite thoroughly and I understand Sinner claims for not trying to make this flamethread but I say this to you and others. Since the rules of this sites make it possible to pick games and make teams how you like why don't you respect others and their wishes on how they want to play the game? I think everybody should be allowed to play how they want and who they want as long as they respect the rules of the game and this site.
PSS. I think Sinner is one of the best elf coaches around against any and all opponents and races. He plays like he wants and is damn good at his job.
Respectfully,
Ville Tiainen (aka Ele) |
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monboesen
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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May 06, 2005 - 14:26 |
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Circularlogics analysis of evolutionary trends on FUMBBL is pretty much spot on.
IMO there’s one important point it does not bring up which is another underlying cause of all this.
Bloodbowl is meant and designed to be played as a tournament game. With the build in assumption that you participate in the tournament to win it. For me the most enjoyable games have been in tournaments (along with some of the most frustrating).
When you play BB in any other way it’s not really BB. It’s a series of one off games that have no relation to each other. That, again IMO, promotes a detached feeling about it all. So what if you don't win the game. Heck you might still get skills and a good income.
Add to that that online gaming makes is psychologically easier to destroy someone’s team without feeling bad about it at all. At least I know that I feel worse when really hurting another team when playing tabletop than if playing online. Not because I’m hurting the team, but because I know the other coach isn’t having fun. |
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bgygas
Joined: Feb 04, 2005
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May 06, 2005 - 14:42 |
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There are thousands of people on fumbbl all wanting to play..
There are hundreds of possible combinations of teams and coaching styles to choose from..
The true bashy or true ball play coach are just extremes of one particular axis.
Why get upset if someone turns you down cos' they don't like the particular matchup,
or because they keep asking you to play when the odds are stacked in their favour.
Just be polite and move on.
I admit that not having access to chat may make me a little more patient than most but if you keep trying to connect you'll definitely end up finding the game you wanted to play.
Also as an aside.
i coach high av teams (bashy teams like chaos and dwarves) so that i can keep my players alive long enough to get a decent team together, i only get to play rarely so it's gonna take me a while to get there.
Which is why i'm very picky about which teams i play i refuse to play kill loaded teams, khemri or teams with dirty players.
thats my choice. If thats cherrypicking thats what i am.
i remember playing the boardgame when i was younger and the fun thing about it was to get an individual team full of cool skills and traits and give your team players different characters.
not to kill off all your friends players. or win all your games at any cost. cos when you do do those things very soon people become tired of playing you.
so don't gripe about my decisions not to play your team. just go and ask someone new... |
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CircularLogic
Joined: Aug 22, 2003
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May 06, 2005 - 15:32 |
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Dear Ele,
I didn´t mean to offend you. I have played you and it was always a nice game and I respect you. BUT I was really shocked about this sentence in your teambio. I read it, after I was turned down 5+ times because of the single DP, most of my teams contain. So it sticked in my memory.
As I was writing about game dodging and refusal to play team of player x, race y or containing skill z, I used you example like a proof. If I would have written about how I talked to coaches and what they told me - well, I can write alot. But in your example, everyone could read your attitude towards fouling and it seemed to me like a hippocritic approach:
You may not have a Dirty Player. I may have a DP to punish a game style, I do not like.
I hope you understand, that I felt (and also feeling) offended by this, as I read like you are some kind of higher moral instance judging over me.
To further strenghten my point (game dodgers are bad for fumbbl), I looked over your statement and it met the criteria for pre-game arragements: You agree on not using your DP until certain conditions are met.
I have heard such statement quite often from other coaches, but this was the only written form I could find.
So I hope after this explanation, you see me post in another light.
Regards,
CL |
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Eddy
Joined: Aug 04, 2004
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May 06, 2005 - 15:43 |
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yeah, when people tell you they don't care about games but just about building, and that they will not do A if you don't do B unless you do C, it's pretty sad for the game... |
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'The generation of random numbers is too important to be left to chance.'
Robert R. Coveyou |
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Wizard
Joined: Jul 09, 2004
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May 06, 2005 - 15:59 |
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i still think the reasons you have all pointed out exist because ranked is broken
If ranked had a challenge system, that would be a better representation of the best players
Currently the best players are the best at choosing there games / not playing and winning against a variety of opppnents - if you want to put conditions on the game (which i agree with circular thats exactly what ele accomplishs by never playing against a dp, but having his own to enforce a playstyle) do so in the [U] enviroment
Stop polluting the [R] results with games that are swung to your favour.
[R] has the effect on your CR and should be a challenge system to stop people unfairly raising there CR by enforcing/ picking conditions to suit themselves - thats not what a ranked enviroment should be about
Ranked should determine the best coaches by the variety of games they play (ie. not just elfbowl) and the success the have against all types/race teams. |
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"As long as one person lives in darkness then it seems to be a responsibility to tell other people." |
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Mephist
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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 Posted:
May 06, 2005 - 16:01 |
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Best way to made Ranked fun again -
Don't show Coaches teams, don't show race. In game finder show only STR - THAT would be interesting games. |
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