Azurus
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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 Posted:
May 06, 2005 - 16:04 |
 
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Nicely done CircularLogic, I liked that piece of writing. I think it's pretty accurate too.
There is one important point you missed though. At roughly the same time as the first 'game-dodgers' appeared, the first 'hunter' types appeared as well. By this I mean those teams who actively sought opponents over which they had an automatic racial advantage. If I remember rightly, it started with half a dozen or so Dwarf & CD team playing only elves, and of course once people noticed that this was happening, they began to be wary of this kind of matchup. (And so this behaviour effectively accelerated the increase in the 'dodging' style)
Your post also got me wondering what the next shift will be. It's obvious both sorts of CPing (dodging&hunting) are still becoming more commonplace, in some cases groups (such as the various MUs) actively encourage one type in reaction to the other, which IMO is kind of sad. I'm hoping we get a vault client at some point, and although I don't really like those rules a change might do this place some good.
Hopefully the next swing in the metagame will bring up something a little more positive than the things you talked about, we can only hope, eh? |
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*This is a public safety announcement. Azurus is a cynical, sarcastic idiot. Please ignore any and everything he may say. Thank you for your attention.* |
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SnakeSanders
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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| Posted:
May 06, 2005 - 16:14 |
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| Mephist wrote: | Best way to made Ranked fun again -
Don't show Coaches teams, don't show race. In game finder show only STR - THAT would be interesting games. |
yep! then all you get are chaos teams in gamefinder  |
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CircularLogic
Joined: Aug 22, 2003
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| Posted:
May 06, 2005 - 16:15 |
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@mephisto:
No way. First only killerteams would go in. Then after enough killerteams played each other, noone would play, because killer don´t like to play each other.
EDIT:
During a short forum malfuction this post was altered.
I just reverted it back. |
Last edited by CircularLogic on %b %06, %2005 - %21:%May; edited 1 time in total |
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Shepherd
Joined: Oct 28, 2004
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| Posted:
May 06, 2005 - 16:26 |
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90% of my FUMBBL games (not that I play a lot, maybe once or twice a week) are tourneys with an array of coaches, teams, races and styles. I'm participating in TBBElite (although I haven't played in it for about 2 weeks because being a North American makes finding Euro players when I'm not at work tricky) and fumbbl.qc, for Quebec residents (which makes finding games muuuuuuuuuch easier -- same timezone!).
I like leagues and tournaments. You get to know other coaches and play a variety of teams, guaranteed. I've never played a lot of ranked and don't really intend to. It seems to lend itself to obsessiveness and not-fun. |
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monboesen
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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| Posted:
May 06, 2005 - 16:27 |
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| Quote: | | No way. First only killerteams would go in. Then after enough killerteams played each other, noone would play, because killer don´t like to play each other. |
Which only shows that the way to stop this neverending cycle is that people start playing nicer instead of taking joy in killing players/teams. Or alternately that maiming skills are nerfed to a level where you don't need to fear them that much. In fact that seems to be the general direction of the Vault rules. No more +2 INJ skills at all.
Whenever this discussion pops up I'm always reminded of Jervis story of why DP was changed from +2 AV/+2 INJ and no Eye. Basically the guys at GM had played their own internal tournement with the original DP for some seasons without any problems. Then a new coach entered and made a team with several DP and fouled every turn. It took all of one season for the BB designers to realise DP was way to strong when you don't play in a "gentleman" kind of way. Thus came the eye and the other nerfs to DP.
Kinda like whats going at FUMBBL in a much larger scale. |
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banana_fish900
Joined: Oct 13, 2003
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| Posted:
May 06, 2005 - 16:34 |
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| Sinner wrote: | | Where is the brave coach that agrees to a game without looking at a roster! |
Two issues:
1) First, you assume that the challenger has also not looked at the rosters (which is not safe to do).
2) Even if you both play blind, a seriously uneven match can result.
Several months ago I had a game versus someone in which we both played blind. Turns out my roster was sickeningly better than the other guys'. Was a game I probably wouldn't have agreed to play if the situation were reversed--which is my definition for cherry picking. He (understandably) got pissy and conceeded.
I'll agree with several of the other posts on this--fumbbl is fumbbl and TT is TT. If you want to play games that are an even matchup, look for the even matchup. If you're tired of refusals, just wait--someone is around who will play you, and if you want something more akin to TT then start a tournament. |
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CircularLogic
Joined: Aug 22, 2003
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| Posted:
May 06, 2005 - 18:49 |
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One of the biggest problem is the fact, that the only thing that really matters are player. If you aren´t looking at your coachranking (which seems to be "in" lately) then you can´t care less about losing. I´m sure every player would trade the win of the game for the revival of his favourite player (who got killed right now). On the other hand: Who would sacrifice his players to win the game? |
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Sinner
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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| Posted:
May 06, 2005 - 19:16 |
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| CircularLogic wrote: | | On the other hand: Who would sacrifice his players to win the game? |
As a matter of fact I would. If I could pull of a win, whilst putting my 76+ player next to a claw/rsc,tackle, po player to ensure my touchdown, I would gladly do so, as the first aim in my game is winning, 2nd is protect players. Players are used to reach aim 1, thus their health is the tool to achive my goal.
I read the whole thread so far, to see what I did with the first post. I learned a lot so far:
There are different kinds of players in fumbbl, who play "their" style to have fun. As the game is meant to be fun and certain styles are not compatible for both to have fun, there surely are games where one or the other coach is pissed for one or the other reason.
Might be that fumbbl community has changed since I started here (more than 2 years ago, shortly after fumbbl went public) and that I have to live with the change... I guess I will manage.
Thus I try to achive as much fun for me AND for my opponent in the hope we have compliant goals.
Just one question: Doesn't a win at the cost of half your team taste sweeter when you can say in the end: "See, maiming an opponent and failing the 3+ pick up to score, because you wasted all that rerolls on blocks, does not give you anything."
Winning is what this game basically is about (next to fun of course). Ever seen a basketball, football (both traditional and american) or whatever game, where winning was second? I do not think so. But then BloodBowl is not a sport. It's a game, that is meant to bring enjoyment and a good time to the participants.
Every coach obviously has his/her own style of playing, including cherrypicking, bashing, scoring, team building and playing for the win. I now accept that.
Thanks for getting this insight. After all, this is still a great community, though it has changed.
The problems descibed above may or may not be changed or solved... we will see.
I will play my style. |
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Sinner
Darkie's Dreams - successfully cherrypicking any race, any coach, any rating, any number of DP since 20/09/2003 ... and still winning! |
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Eddy
Joined: Aug 04, 2004
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| Posted:
May 06, 2005 - 20:25 |
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| monboesen wrote: | | Which only shows that the way to stop this neverending cycle is that people start playing nicer instead of taking joy in killing players/teams. |
yeah because BB is ALL about playing nice and friendly between orcs and elves, right ? ^^ |
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'The generation of random numbers is too important to be left to chance.'
Robert R. Coveyou |
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origami
Joined: Oct 14, 2003
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| Posted:
May 06, 2005 - 20:32 |
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| CircularLogic wrote: | | On the other hand: Who would sacrifice his players to win the game? |
I would, and have risked my players to win the game. Ranked really is a series of one-off games, and each person is free to pursue their own goals. Some people go for cas, others develop teams, some go for a spot in the record books. I used to be a team developer...until I realized that having 200+ TR made it tougher to find games, and that those games were less enjoyable.
Now, I just try to win each game that I play - I'm quite competitive, and that's what is fun for me. I've lost players because I used my apo on an early BH of a key player. Honestly, I don't make a huge fuss over losing an experienced player because that loss helps me keep my TR down. On the other hand, I still don't care to play the mangling teams. This is partly because I don't enjoy having my players mangled. The other half of it is that I just plain enjoy fast, TD-focused games more than cas fests. Having my team team ground into the dirt as my opponent slowly cages down the field over 8 turns just isn't particularly fun for me.
I would have to agree, though, that refusing to play teams with DP while having a DP on your roster is a bit dodgy. Having a fouling policy seems reasonable, however. An agreement takes two people - these policies are just a single person letting others know how they tend to play the game. Without one of these policies, you are stuck in a kind of catch-22. DP is a broken skill. Playing a team that has a DP when you don't have one is just asking to get mangled without having any effective way to fight back. On the other hand, if you get a DP, then many of the teams who don't have one will dodge you...and understandably so. The policy merely allows you to have a fair match against a team with DP while still getting games against teams that don't have one. |
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monboesen
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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| Posted:
May 06, 2005 - 20:32 |
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| Quote: |
yeah because BB is ALL about playing nice and friendly between orcs and elves, right ? ^^
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Did you have anything constructive to add to the discussion ?
Of course BB is meant to be a game of friendly fun regardless of the various fluff of the races. Who bothers to play games that aren't fun.
And I for one find it violent enough even without excessive fouling and +2 INJ skills. Its not like its a war game.
In fact it boggles the mind how you would ever find anyone willing to be a bloodbowl player. What is the life expentency of an average player. 20-30 games perhaps. That should be about a year or two of actual playing  |
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paulhicks
Joined: Jul 19, 2004
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| Posted:
May 06, 2005 - 20:44 |
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this whole thread seems to be about pigeon holing people into styles of play and judging them based on it. i get so fed up with "elfbowlers" moaning about "bashers" and visa versa. just play the games you want to... and stop stressing about how others play.
and those people who then moan that people are avoiding each other so what? theres thousands of coaches on fumbbl and while many just play at the extreame ends there are many who havnt forgotten the main thing:
ITS A DAMN GAME
Its suposed to be played with fun in mind. scince when did we all become so egotistical that we think our way of having fun is the only valid one.
please try to remember that no matter how fantastic this game is (and it is) it isnt worth getting so wound up about all the time. |
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Last edited by paulhicks on %b %06, %2005 - %20:%May; edited 1 time in total |
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origami
Joined: Oct 14, 2003
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| Posted:
May 06, 2005 - 20:45 |
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| monboesen wrote: |
Of course BB is meant to be a game of friendly fun regardless of the various fluff of the races. Who bothers to play games that aren't fun.
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Exactly...and if you want the game to grow, or to even have people want to play you again then you should do your best to allow your opponents to have fun too.
I've gotten to the point where I will sacrifice some of my chance at winning in order to make the game more fun. For example. on those rare occasions where an elven team agrees to play my orcs, I avoid stalling. Sure, it's a perfectly legimitate and useful tactic...but it's no fun whatsoever for your opponent when you sit on the edge of the endzone for four turns. On the other hand, when one of my elven teams is up 3-0 halfway through the second half, I'm not going to put nearly as much effort into my defense. I'd rather just focus on getting through the remainder of the game without further cas - my opponent scoring once doesn't make a bit of difference to the outcome of the game, and it might make him a little less frustrated.
I've had the opposite done me. In one case, my opponent caged, then stalled for three or four turns, with the comment that he was "forced to stall." It wasn't terribly fun, and I'm not particularly eager for a rematch. |
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Eddy
Joined: Aug 04, 2004
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| Posted:
May 06, 2005 - 21:44 |
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| origami wrote: | | For example. on those rare occasions where an elven team agrees to play my orcs, I avoid stalling. Sure, it's a perfectly legimitate and useful tactic...but it's no fun whatsoever for your opponent when you sit on the edge of the endzone for four turns. |
i disagree, it's no duller than when skaven play elves and the one who loses is the one who fails his OTS or his "2+ RR pick-up 2+ RR long bomb 2+ RR catch"-TD.
if you can stall, it's because your opponent can't defend.
people should try and LEARN to defend at this game, and they should also EQUIP their elf teams with defense skills, taking dauntless instead of NoS or diving tackle/tackle instead of sure feet/sprint.
the problem is that people play this like they play a video game: it's about scoring the fastest possible, and they cry a river if you're not nice enough to let them score with their shiny tools.
when you play PES4, and you are in the lead, and in the injury time, you keep the ball out of reach of your opponent, you don't lob it into his feet so that he can try a shoot, lest he'll complain about you being a bad sports.
edited typos. |
_________________
'The generation of random numbers is too important to be left to chance.'
Robert R. Coveyou |
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monboesen
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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| Posted:
May 06, 2005 - 22:24 |
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| Quote: |
i disagree, it's no duller than when skaven play elves and the one who loses is the one who fails his OTS or his "2+ RR pick-up 2+ RR long bomb 2+ RR catch"-TD.
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That simply isn't true. If it was true elf/skaven games should typically end up with 10-14 TD´s a game. They don't. Even for elves and skavens you have to play either at very high TR (and that generally is very boring no matter the teams) or vs. very inept defense for it to be only a couple of 2+ rolls per TD.
And I would much rather play a game with multiple TD's and fast action than one consisting of prolonged periods of stalling (which of course has its place if absolutely neccerary for the win).
Thinking about it IMO stalling, fouling and cas hunting are all a sort of negative feedback mechanism. When its done to you get frustrated and want to retaliate in kind. Often you are not able to do so in the game where you are targeted so instead you do so over the next couple of games. In retrospect I recognise that I have done that on occasion.
Disclaimer: I know and understand that not all coaches feel like that and that some genuinely like and enjoy causing and recieving injuries. Thats OK with me as it is my choice to play them or not. |
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