| Poll |
| Do you think fouling should be changed? |
| No, fouling and DP is fine as it is. |
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47% |
[ 70 ] |
| No, leave fouling alone and just tone down DP. |
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22% |
[ 33 ] |
| Yes, fouling should be changed in a way I will post |
|
5% |
[ 8 ] |
| Yes, fouling should be changed like you said, but I won´t support any 'movement' |
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5% |
[ 8 ] |
| Yes, change fouling like you proposed and I will support the cause |
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18% |
[ 27 ] |
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| Total Votes : 146 |
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CircularLogic
Joined: Aug 22, 2003
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 Posted:
May 13, 2005 - 18:05 |
 
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Today I had another nice chat with a coach and again the topic fouling and DP came up. Like many other coaches, he stated the fact, that he consideres DP as broken. As usual I told him, that I think, the fouling mechanic is the part that needs tweaking and told him, how I would change the rules.
There was something special this time:
When I started about noone would listen to a good proposal, he disagreed and encouraged me to do something - so here I am.
What I want to do:
- propose a solution for fouling
- discuss with you, until we have a lot of support for a certain idea
- depending on the amount of support, ask for test in div-x or create some PbeM-league
- run over to the vault and tbb and show tell, them what we want
The problem:
The current fouling has many balance problems, mainly regarding dirty player, the sent-off/hurt-opponent rate and get the ref. Someone fouling with Dirty Player is sent off less often than he takes out an opponent. Dirty Player in combination with get the ref often leads to the destruction of a whole team.
My proposal:
Instead of changing Dirty Player, which would just patch up some glitches, I want to change the chance of being ejected. I believe that you should be punished for illegal actions depending on the dmg you do. Thus I want to propose a modifier to the ref-roll (= the d6 rolled to see, if the ref caught you) depending on the injury cause by the foul:
stun: +0
KO: +1
BH/SI: +2
RIP: +3
It´s natural, that the ref gets more suspicious, when a player just lying prone suddenly dies, while a bunch of mean gits are piling on him, as if he gets up again. Another point that imbalances fouling IMO is the fact, that you have no consequences of being sent off besides having to play one man down and having a turnover. So if high results are scored on the ref-roll (as a combination of a hurting foul and a watching ref), there can be further penalties:
Ref-Roll = 6+: Player sent off
Ref-Roll = 9+: Player sent off and misses next game
Ref-Roll = 11: Player sent off and killed by an enraged fan-mob
What to do with get the ref?
The player who got the ref may decide, to reroll the ref-roll.
OR
The player who got the ref argues the call on 4+
Why not just tone down Dirty Player?
I have the opinion, that an illegal action like a foul should hurt more than a block. A foul should be a tactical decision, to take out players you need to be off the pitch. You take the risk to lose one of your players, so it should be more reliable to take an opponent of the pitch than a block from a MB-player. The most important roll on a foul is the injury-roll, so I think, that you should get a bonus on this roll. As mighty blow already gives +1 and is available to alot of teams on a normal skillroll, dirty player should give +2. Else there is no reason to ban fouling by the ref, when you aren´t more likely to hurt someone than on a block...
Final words:
I like the game in the current form. However, as fouling/DP is considered broken by so many players and starts to hurt the fun here on fumbbl due to whining/bitching/game dodging, it´s one of the very few things I think should change. So I just make a start and raise the voice.
I need support for it. If you think I am wrong, tell me why and propose another solution. If you just want to say, that noone will listen anyway, then don´t post at all. I want to gather the people who want a change and are willing do something, to get the game changed in a way we like.
Thx to ChrisB for encouraging me to write this. |
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blizzt95
Joined: Apr 12, 2005
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| Posted:
May 13, 2005 - 18:07 |
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It is supposed to be changed in the vault, as is the rule about being sent off. |
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Macavity
Joined: Nov 23, 2004
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| Posted:
May 13, 2005 - 18:08 |
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I applaud the effort, but it will degenerate...... fouling is fine |
_________________
When I became a man I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up. -C.S. Lewis |
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BigMac
Joined: Dec 19, 2004
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| Posted:
May 13, 2005 - 18:12 |
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If anything, get the ref is broken.
Get the ref should only disable "The Eye", still sending you off on a 1.
The +2 is good sound and needed.
Just get used to the fact that teams are not supposed to skyrocket to tr400 but try to keep the tr low, where there is more money and less vicious opponents.
my 2 € cents. |
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CircularLogic
Joined: Aug 22, 2003
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| Posted:
May 13, 2005 - 18:42 |
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@blizzt:
Fouling under vault rules hurts less (because DP is nerfed), but only leads to a sent-off in 1/6 of the cases IIRC.
@Macavity:
If fouling is fine, why are there so many guys complaining about it? Are they all just whiners? Why can a team with cheap linos win the game by just out fouling the opposition?
@BigMac:
Not only get the ref is broken. A DP gets about 1,2 players off the pitch on average, before he is ejected himself and that´s WITH the eye on the fouler all the time. So either DP is too effective or the ref doesn´t send of foulers often enough. |
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thesquig
Joined: Apr 11, 2004
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| Posted:
May 13, 2005 - 18:45 |
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Can we make this into on of those "I like toast" threads? 
I voted fouling is ok, but I think get the ref is broke. |
_________________
Nuffle Sucks!!!
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Zy-Nox
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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| Posted:
May 13, 2005 - 18:47 |
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We used to use something along these lines in a TT league about 6 years ago, worked a treat.
I would rather see DP stay as a +2 than the proposed change of +1/+1 . Hell i'd be happy if a player was suspended just so long as he gave someone a good kick in the teeth.
Best bet is to try it in pbem as it will probably take to much work to get it in jbb. |
_________________
"Who made that girly Zy-kNox Mod?"
Anarchy Online |
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Macavity
Joined: Nov 23, 2004
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| Posted:
May 13, 2005 - 18:51 |
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Back @ CircularLogic If Blocking is fine, why are so many players without it getting knocked down? In my experience (which, granted isn't a lot) most of the complaints about DP teams are of a "surprised" nature. First time against a coach using the FOUL ALL tactic results in severe team damage due to unpreparedness. I never tke DP myself, but have learned how t oplay against it. WW1 people could have said "the machine gun is unbeatable in a trench", but eventually they invented tanks, then anti-tank rockets, then.... New things often surprise people, I could have said stunty was broken the first time I played against it because my normal TZ tactics were useless. Not trying to be mean, but think about it. |
_________________
When I became a man I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up. -C.S. Lewis |
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CircularLogic
Joined: Aug 22, 2003
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| Posted:
May 13, 2005 - 19:36 |
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I have thought about it, but having done the math behind the simple player trade, I have seen, that there is not much possibility for "counter-tactics" besides having a 16-player rooster, which isn´t viable for alot of races. |
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gken1
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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| Posted:
May 13, 2005 - 19:40 |
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if teams play without dirty player and foul....there is no issue. Once DP is thrown into the mix there is a problem with advantage going to team with DP. So it is not the fouling mechanic that is broken, but DP. |
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Macavity
Joined: Nov 23, 2004
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| Posted:
May 13, 2005 - 19:41 |
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Well, the main point being that to foul, you must first knock someone down. Again, this is from limited experience, but every DP you get is another skill you didn't get. Going for Blodge and Guard seems to allow the upright game to go incredibly in my favour and compensates for DPs, of course, I've never played beyond the 200 TR range, so many highly skilled players including DP may be different, but most coaches give DP to a "waste" player or two (linos), and never risk the foul with their stars. I dunno, maybe II need to be fouled more, but I feel like I've gotten my share of the boot.... |
_________________
When I became a man I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up. -C.S. Lewis |
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keggiemckill
Joined: Oct 07, 2004
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| Posted:
May 13, 2005 - 19:42 |
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I would just like to see no assists to fouling. |
_________________
The Drunker I get, the more I spill
"Keggie is the guy with the bleach blond hair that gives answers nobody else would think of."
Jeffro |
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CircularLogic
Joined: Aug 22, 2003
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| Posted:
May 13, 2005 - 19:43 |
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DP used for one or two fouls a game is not broken. It´s a tactical tool. Only the too soft penalty makes it go out of hand at mass foulings. |
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Mully
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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| Posted:
May 13, 2005 - 19:43 |
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I was about to make some toast on this, but then I read it carefully. Nice idea CL. Try sending it Galak or someone who can do somehting about it.
| Quote: |
It is supposed to be changed in the vault, as is the rule about being sent off.
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The vault changes to DP, IMO suck. WHY? CL posted some good reasons why above. DP should be deadly, BUT best case scenario you should be prepared to lose the fouler on a highly successfull foul.
This forces you to be strategic ie - only foul players you need off the pitch to win, and wait for the right moment when you can garner enough assists to make it count.
I hope somehting similar to your proposal goes through .... which really means it probably wont. |
_________________
Owner of the REAL Larson
Come join the CCC League |
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DreadClaw
Joined: Nov 17, 2003
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| Posted:
May 13, 2005 - 19:47 |
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I'm an avid fouler.. i just think get the ref should be fixed.. every team that isn't stunty (or ogre) can get a dp on a simple roll.. so it's not dp that's that broken. it's a good method of cleaning out the evil 2x str+ players, or big guys or whatever..
Just change get the ref to never get the eye on you (allways caught on 6+) and i think that should solve it. |
_________________
Death be not proud. Though Some have called thee Mighty and Dreadful Thou art not so. |
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