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Laviak



Joined: Jul 19, 2004

Post   Posted: May 24, 2005 - 15:30 Reply with quote Back to top

Can someone point me in the direction of an explanation of how ladder actually works?

I've read the Ladder? entry in the user guide, which gives a nice overview, but doesn't really seem to explain how it works. I think maybe some examples are needed -- I'm more than happy to add some, I just need to understand how it works properly first. Razz

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sk8bcn



Joined: Apr 13, 2004

Post   Posted: May 24, 2005 - 17:16 Reply with quote Back to top

the points calculation are still a bit unclear even if it somehow looks like wins+draw/2-losses. These points determine your classement. As I did only challenged opponents higher than myself, maybe downward, there is some malus applied to the formula.

When you win games you get challenge points with wich you can defi opponents. They have a week to decide wether they accept or decline the challenge and then you have a week to play that game.

I just watch on suitable opponents, add them to buddy list (to see if they are gone or still here -ladder would need a clean up-) them tell them I am going to challenge them.

Currently I am looking to play Candlejack or Mezir. I did not send a challenge to Mezir because he told me he is busy, but I will someday.


ladder has a great concept. But too many teams are teams from dead coaches that you have to look so precisely to find an opponent that newcommers feels discouraged.
Laviak



Joined: Jul 19, 2004

Post   Posted: May 25, 2005 - 03:18 Reply with quote Back to top

Just spotted this in one of the threads, would this actually be the formula being used to calculate Ladder points? Or is it something old?
Christer wrote:
Win:
[your score] += max(1, round(([their score] - [your score])/2))
[their score] -= 1

Tie:
[your score] += max(0, round(([their score] - [your score])/4))
[their score] += max(0, round(([your score] - [their score])/4))

Loss:
[your score] -= 1
[their score] += max(1, round(([your score] - [their score])/2))



Is it correct that challenge points do "nothing" at the moment, except let you make challenges? i.e. they have no affect on your ladder standing.

Also, is it correct that as far as ladder points go, there is no difference between a game you just play (via 'lfg' / gamefinder / etc)? The only difference would be that you don't get any ladder points for it?

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sk8bcn



Joined: Apr 13, 2004

Post   Posted: May 25, 2005 - 10:44 Reply with quote Back to top

let me just think;

the formula must be the right one. So roughly 1 point every win. -1 per loss if you look to the closest team of your standings.

That might be the formula.

Sadly right on second point. It should be fixed IMO. Challenge points are part of the fun. Maybe they should count at half they value in the standings.
Arktoris



Joined: Feb 16, 2004

Post   Posted: Jul 13, 2005 - 19:39 Reply with quote Back to top

bumping this back up.

currently the user guide has no formula explanation or hard fast rules. can anyone verify if the above formula is true?

Also I agree that challenge points should count somehow towards the ladder. someone who never accepts challenges shouldn't have the privelage to remain on a higher ladder rung than those who do.

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sk8bcn



Joined: Apr 13, 2004

Post   Posted: Jul 13, 2005 - 19:44 Reply with quote Back to top

more: I don't like the fact you can be 6/4 and be ranked below a 6/-2

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Mully



Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Post   Posted: Jul 13, 2005 - 20:34 Reply with quote Back to top

Quote:

Also I agree that challenge points should count somehow towards the ladder. someone who never accepts challenges shouldn't have the privelage to remain on a higher ladder rung than those who do


Bahhh

OK Ark - I'll just keep challenging you and after you accept, refuse to set up a time to play. We both lose challenge points and I'll drag you down to the bottom with me. Maybe you will change your mind after that.

Seriously, points should be based on winning/losing. You win, you move up, you lose you move down.

Just put your team up on gamefinder and play the old fashion way.

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Arktoris



Joined: Feb 16, 2004

Post   Posted: Jul 13, 2005 - 21:03 Reply with quote Back to top

Mully,

that level of abuse can only go so far. You can only challenge once a week, can't challenge the same team twice in a row, and can't challenge a team that is currently in a challenge situation. Furthermore, rapidly your challenge points will drain away and you will lose your challenge priveleges. Additionally, your credit in the ladder community will plummet and you may find it hard to get games.

Personally, I think if someone maliciously and habitually does what you fear, a support ticket can be filed.

the above level of abuse CAN probably happen more realistically if it's done via conspiracy among many coaches....especially those who have no ladder interest. Get several friends to make useless ladder teams and fire off challenge after challenge.

I'm unaware of the history of abuses in ladder. I new to it. Perhaps, all this has been hashed out before.

as a side note, 3 of 4 games I've played have been the lfg route.

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Mully



Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Post   Posted: Jul 13, 2005 - 22:12 Reply with quote Back to top

Quote:

I'm unaware of the history of abuses in ladder. I new to it. Perhaps, all this has been hashed out before.


What really happens is some new guy challenges you without considering where you are from and the game gets forfeited cause you cant find a time to play due to time zones.

I mush better solution is for you to only be able to challenge other teams who are on gamefinder with you at the same time and within a certain TR range. Then they should have to accept or lose challenge points. The fact they put their team on gamefinder should make them fair game.

But with christer away so much dont look more many rule changes. Just put them on game finder and try and get games.

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BadMrMojo



Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Post   Posted: Jul 13, 2005 - 22:26 Reply with quote Back to top

Silly me. I thought the entire purpose of a ladder was to have scoring done in a fashion where you beat someone higher on the ladder than you are and you advance, while losing to someone lower than you means you go down. Not just Ladder Division on FUMBBL®™, but any ladder.

Challenge points are an extra. A freebie. Fluff. A fun addition. Whatever you want to call it. The defining characteristic of the scoring system is Ladder Points.

It's almost like saying, "Nice car, but my oven makes better toast."


Quote:
Is it correct that challenge points do "nothing" at the moment, except let you make challenges? i.e. they have no affect on your ladder standing.

Also, is it correct that as far as ladder points go, there is no difference between a game you just play (via 'lfg' / gamefinder / etc)? The only difference would be that you don't get any ladder points for it?

You are correct. Whether the game was arranged through a challenge or just a pickup match, the ladder points is determined by who you have played (their standing on the ladder relative to your own) and whether you won or lost.

(No, I'm not actually being pissy about this, although after rereading it, it looks that way. Not the intent.)

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Mully



Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Post   Posted: Jul 13, 2005 - 22:36 Reply with quote Back to top

Speaking of which, why dont you start playing some ladder you shell of a man. I even created a new sucky team for you to play since my other one is too good for you!!!!

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BadMrMojo



Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Post   Posted: Jul 13, 2005 - 22:46 Reply with quote Back to top

I'm actually just afraid of going 0/3 against Mully. Smile

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sk8bcn



Joined: Apr 13, 2004

Post   Posted: Jul 13, 2005 - 22:48 Reply with quote Back to top

BadMrMojo wrote:
Silly me. I thought the entire purpose of a ladder was to have scoring done in a fashion where you beat someone higher on the ladder than you are and you advance, while losing to someone lower than you means you go down. Not just Ladder Division on FUMBBL®™, but any ladder.

Challenge points are an extra. A freebie. Fluff. A fun addition. Whatever you want to call it. The defining characteristic of the scoring system is Ladder Points.

It's almost like saying, "Nice car, but my oven makes better toast."




So you are just saying. It can't be better?

correct me if I am wrong but I think that the scoring system could get better!

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Arktoris



Joined: Feb 16, 2004

Post   Posted: Jul 14, 2005 - 03:11 Reply with quote Back to top

well Mully you definitely bring up some good points. One of harley-toppers teams seems to have suffered just what you've said.

My initial impression was that the challenge system was the "selling" point of ladder.

however, I'll keep playing ladder and in the manner those more experienced have suggested. I shouldn't whine and ask about rule changes without first paying my dues.

I'll also assume that "yes" the above formula from Christer is still accurate and current. As that was my original question.

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Laviak



Joined: Jul 19, 2004

Post   Posted: Jul 24, 2005 - 04:34 Reply with quote Back to top

imho, the selling point of ladder is being able to prove that your team is 'the best' ... and then beating off any other would-be challengers who have the insolence to believe that their team is actually better!


The only thing i don't really like about the scoring system is that it results in a large number of evenly ranked teams (mostly on 0, 1, and 2 points). Basically, there aren't enough 'rungs' on the ladder for my liking. Unfortunately, I can't say that I have a good solution Sad

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