sk8bcn
Joined: Apr 13, 2004
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 Posted:
Jun 03, 2005 - 14:51 |
 
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yes and bunnypuncher also cause I belong to the chivalri (spelling.?) group of the "defenders of the rabbit".
Ironik, you should quote. I have no clue about what Idea you are speking. |
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Tor_AlKir
Joined: Oct 10, 2003
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Jun 03, 2005 - 15:14 |
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Would it be possible to change the K value of games in Ranked? For instance your CR will increase more for elves playing dwarves, for instance, than it would other elves. Perhaps that will be incentive enough if you have coaches that are looking to get ahead in CR. |
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Azurus
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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Jun 03, 2005 - 19:16 |
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Well, while that sounds nice in theory, I doubt it would work in practice.
The 'problem' with the current CR formula is that some people are playing way down to gain lots of tiny increases in CR, instead of playing even games for a big chunk. If you change the K's for different races, these people will still play the easy ones, they'll just do it more since their CR increase for it will be smaller.
Edited for spelling |
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CircularLogic
Joined: Aug 22, 2003
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Jun 07, 2005 - 17:46 |
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*pokes the thread*
So what up with the suggestions for changing TS/CR-formula? |
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Funso
Joined: Apr 05, 2004
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Jun 07, 2005 - 19:04 |
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Think we all eventually felt that Ranked was in pretty good health, and needed no change. |
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Mezir
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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Jun 07, 2005 - 19:09 |
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CR formula is not going to change. TS formula is still up in the air, I guess. |
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Karhumies
Joined: Oct 17, 2004
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Jun 07, 2005 - 20:04 |
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| Christer wrote: | The current ranking system is ELO based, which is a VERY common system to rank people. The ELO system is not inherently flawed, but there are two factors in how FUMBBL works that in combination gives coaches the ability to min/max their ranking:
1. The fact that teams are not equal.
2. The ability to pick and choose your opponents.
The first point is inherent in blood bowl and it would simply be silly to change this. The second point ties in to what I wrote earlier. FUMBBL is by design primarly an "open play" environment and I do not want this to change. |
The fact that teams are not equal is not what brings the ELO system crashing down. For example, Decipher has used a modification of the ELO system in their LotR TCG, Star Trek TCG, WARS TCG etc. etc. tournaments and my experiences of the system are extremely positive.
The ability to pick and choose your opponents is what makes it so hard to implement a working ranking system into the Ranked division. Each game in Ranked is a single match versus a chosen opponent, unlike in chess or trading card game tournaments, for example.
Example 1: In a tournament, coach A wins the game versus coach B. Coach B wins the game versus coach C. Coach A wins the coach C. From this, we can deduce that coach A is best of the three, coach B is second-best and coach C is the worst.
Example 2: In ranked, coach A wins the game versus coach B. Coach B wins the game versus coach C. Coach D wins the game versus coach A. Coach E wins the game versus coach C. Coach C wins the game versus coach D.
It is very hard to deduce anything, as the coaches play cross-linked games. Most coaches will never play against each other. Instead of small pools like real-life countries (there are always national championships) and on a smaller scale, municipalities/towns (regional tournaments) every player is in the same, big pool and everyone is free to play versus everyone else.
ELO system works in tournament conditions, not in an open environment. Therefore, as funny as may it sound, I believe the CR would be much more precise if it was used only in tournaments (unranked tournament groups, official ranked tournaments).
I support removing the ranking sytem from the Ranked division because ranking systems in general do not work in an open environment. If the ranking system will be kept, the ranking should only be calculated from the official tournaments.
IMO ranked and unranked are extremely similar already. If the divisions should be different from each other, I'd say the ranked teams should only be allowed to play in official tournaments and all the casual games should happen in Unranked. Otherwise the stats will be skewed. |
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CircularLogic
Joined: Aug 22, 2003
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Aug 03, 2005 - 19:13 |
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Just bringing it up again... there still is no feedback about the proposed changes in the TS-system. |
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juck101
Joined: Nov 16, 2003
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Aug 18, 2005 - 10:42 |
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For my money just looking at whats in the thread so far I think that R is the only easy place to get games.
I log on once a blue moon and play- and that has three problems
A) None of my teams have a high team rating to play the teams of legened here. Not that I always want to play the best but having the option is nice.
B) I dont hang online more than a few minutes before i find a game. I just bash out a few R games and thats it. I have never had the time to look up league players and get involved with more seriouse stuff. I dont even know how Ladder and most tournis work - thats both ignorance and also because im happy just to play. - ie R gets me a game and i like that
C) By virtue of not being part of any group I just play people and never get to meet any characters/friends often. Without finding out who i get on with or find sporting that takes most of the fun out it. Major concerns with cherry picking are based around 'sportmanship' and that aint part of the formula. Most of the etiquette rules in the most open play are not as open as they should be.
None of my three issues are any concern of stat system but as the silent majority im very much part of it. Bothers me not the figure under my name - but by playing in the most basic easy format i am part of the system.
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Back to my ideas to change this - I dont think that can be 'fixed'. Many minor players will always be in the dark of such things as the value of a st5/ag5 stand firm chaos warrior - and some will always need to find out and take advantage. Aint much to change the core system and how it works. More racial diversity between games would be nice but aint going to work. Invisible CR is best thing I have read that may work in some form. |
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sk8bcn
Joined: Apr 13, 2004
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Aug 18, 2005 - 11:09 |
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argl. Invisible CR is just pure crap!!!
what's the point in trying to get at top coaches when you can't compare at all your level. Ranked is a competitive format.
The basical problem is that R is the default division. |
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SnakeSanders
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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Aug 18, 2005 - 11:21 |
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you should join my TBB league juck! just make a team and check the chat channel whenever yyour on, you might be lucky  |
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Direwolf
Joined: Jun 22, 2005
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Aug 18, 2005 - 11:44 |
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Hmmm... I think that the thing is basically two different issues:
1 - Cherrypicking. That one you can't avoid... is nearly impossible to devise a system that avoids unfair match ups.. specially in an open environment.
2 - CR and TS. Actually the changes proposed to TS are fine by me. But in my opinion what we need here is "relative" TS. Take amazons, chaos and dwarves as an example. A newly created Amazon team (all-dodgers) can be quite a match for a chaos team (no skills) but is seriously inadequate against dvarves (block/tackle). So we should work out a way to calculate how likely is a team to win (or to fare well, anyway) against another particular team.. also, when handicaps come out is my opinion that we should consider which particular handicap has been extracted (they are far different from each other.. some suck some are broken) |
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Laviak
Joined: Jul 19, 2004
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Aug 18, 2005 - 12:15 |
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we have an awful lot of data in the fumbbl database ... if someone clever enough were to put some time into it, I'm sure we could do some analysis of wins/losses of the various teams and skills, and make use of that in determining a 'more accurate' TS rating system. Might take a bit of work though 
I guess the things that can be taken into account before a coach's skills starts to affect the outcome are the actual teams (and the player skills), the handicaps, and whether or not a niggled player actually gets to play in the match. Anything else? |
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xen7ric
Joined: Jan 13, 2005
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Aug 18, 2005 - 13:24 |
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Direwolf, the percieved problem of cherrypicking is problem that we have to get over. The problem though isn't that it happens but that people have an issue with it. (this isn't an attack on you, your thread just mentions it, it doesn't state an opinion. I thought a summary would be useful).
Ranked is Open and we know some teams and players etc are better and that some combinations give one side an advantage. Fine. That's life, anyone who doesn't cherrypick will lose out in the rankings etc and that is good because they have missed the point of open play. For anyone reading this that doesn't like it, I suggest playing in Ladder or U where it isn't an issue (particularly in structured tournaments in U).
As for your second point, changes in TS are fine by me although I think doing this would just change the issues rather than resolving them. Otherwise, great idea, any stats we can get on relative team strengths would be welcomed by me. |
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Direwolf
Joined: Jun 22, 2005
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Aug 18, 2005 - 13:39 |
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xen7ric I absolutely agree with you on cherrypicking. As I said is nearly impossible to avoid unfair match ups in a way or another.. as for the way cherrypicking is peceived, in my opinion is more a fact of attitude.
There are cherrypickers that are fun to play against..
By the way, you can avoid blatant cherrypicking simply looking at the enemy's roster.  |
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