Johnny_Rook
Joined: Jul 08, 2005
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 Posted:
Jul 29, 2005 - 02:03 |
 
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Yay ... Bring on the Mummies with Jump Up  |
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deathgerbil
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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Jul 29, 2005 - 02:08 |
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oh god. or trees with jump up. oh the abuse possibilities. This is exactly why i think there should be TRAITS to prevent some horrible horrible abuse. |
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Woodpecker
Joined: Apr 08, 2005
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Jul 29, 2005 - 02:10 |
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Gortex of the oddly capitolized name: Meh, whatever. Most of the killing skills have been nerfed. Secret Weapons now mostly suck. I missed the part about modifiers though (read all the changes in about 5 minutes). I could be wrong. It's happened before....well, once...sort of...  |
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Johnny_Rook
Joined: Jul 08, 2005
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Jul 29, 2005 - 03:18 |
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It would be cool if skills had a probability. For example the probabliity of a mummy getting block might be 90% where as the probability of Jump up could be 5%. That way .... anything COULD happen ... so you could have the occasional UBER player.
I guess it could work like this .... instead of just having access to a skill group ... you get a modifier e.g. a Mummy might have +5 strength Skills, +0 Agility Skills etc. Then each skill has a accessabiltiy rating From 0 to 12 ... when you roll your two dice you add the total + modifiers ... then you can take any skill that is below that probability. So for a Mummy to get Jump up (Accessabilty 12) it would have to roll 6+6 (i.e. +ST or Jump Up) ... something like that anyway. That way there is the possibilty of some awesome players.
Hmmm just some food for thought |
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chunky04
Joined: Aug 11, 2003
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Jul 29, 2005 - 03:30 |
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Colin, my concerns are actually a reaction to that post - they certainly aren't covered by it at all, but are rather refuting that logic, which is IMO flawed.
Brownrob:
The league was going OK - I still enjoy the LRB 1.3 with lots of houserules league I am in a lot more though. I despise these latest changes though, and have been feeling the whole thing is really just an excuse in allowing justification of the new rules for some time now. There really doesn't seem to be room for any dissenting opinions. For most of these, they have been easily dealt with as they have generally been poorly made due to being inflammatory, or with a lack of logic or experience behind them. Given that I've put a fair amount of effort into helping test the rules, I'd like to think my input has at least been considered, but I don't think this has been the case. Given that I disagree with the way the whole thing is being conducted, I don't think its right to give it tacit approval by continuing to participate.
The problem has never been that the other mutations aren't powerful enough as I see it, rather that they don't fit in very well with the teams that get them, especially given that they can be trumped by a single +AG roll. I think the improved mutations in the vault were a step in the right direction, but they'd generally still require a fair amount of specialisation to use properly. They will only ever be taken to enhance a particular specialised role, so they will tend to wait till a player has the basic tools for that specialisation (eg catch with the mutations that assist catching).
The long period of playtesting is the reason given for rushing them through, but the problem is there is now no valid baseline to compare the results too - only the 1.7 version where I'm happy to agree Claw+MB+Piling On was a problem. 1.8 essentially may as well never have existed.
For the record, this is what I think of the vault up to 1.9:
Good:
New skills - I think the skill system in the vault is excellent. The increase in counters makes things interesting, and strength teams in particular now have a lot more tactical options availabe beyond the Guard MB route. There is a lot more variety in general.
New cards - I really like the new cards. I have only really played with the 50 and 100K cards, but these are definitely not ye olde superpowered cards of yore. They worked very well, and the only change I would make would be to combine the decks to make it one full deck of cards to choose from. This would make them a bit more random, and also make allocating cards a faster process.
New Rotters roster - I think the new roster is excellent. Unfortunately I never got round to testing it out - I was looking at them for the next season. I did play against them once, and they seemed interesting.
Assassin - I really like the addition of this player to the Dark Elves. Its not hugely powerful, and helps distinguish them further from the rest.
Secret Weapons - so far I give them the thumbs up. I've been using the Deathroller on my Dwarf team for a few games now, and its value has been far less than its reputation. The one drive mechanism works well - though it does encourage stalling to get value out of the roller. Get the Ref is scary with these thing now, but tis moved to dub 1's, so I've only had it once against me (with 10 High Elves, facing a chainsaw and two DP's from inducements - ouch).
Undecided:
CEM - there are some things I do like about this mechanic, but I think it still needs tweaking. There is plenty of discussion elsewhere on this.
Bad:
Inducements - I really haven't enjoyed these a great deal. For starters, they seem to be being used as a catch all for all the games ills. Second, they really are boring and soulless. I also think that they're too powerful, given that they can be tailored to the specific opponent.
Team Value - its a good idea in theory, but in practice I don't really think it works. If you have a look at the teams at:
http://wsbbl.irwilliams.com/league.php?season_id=1
I think you'll see what I mean. IMO, the TV's don't really represent too accurately the teams in there. I think the system would work better for teams at current TR200+ equivalents, but doesn't work as well at lower TR.
Apoth - I think this has been nerfed to the point of uselessness. I only ended up buying one for my Dwarfs once I got silly numbers of +ST players to protect. Its also substantially worse now than Regen. Regen gives a 4+ to take an injury back to nothing. Apoth now gives you a 50% chance to go back to BH, a 1/6 chance for a MNG, and a 2/6 chance of death or permanent injury, depending on the initial injury rolled. It can also only be used once. If the old 2+ apoth truly was too good (which I personally think is debatable), then why not just make it 2+ to become BH?
Lack of money - cashflow is noticeably lower in Vault rules. Combined with the nerfed apoth, this has the result that the agility teams now tend to carry quite a few injuries. This tends to tie into the team value, where the team that has suffered these injuries is actually substantially worse of. They then suffer the other team getting inducements, which tend to be targetted at the skills they rely on for protection - Blodge. This results in further injury. If you end up in a siuation where you have 11 players or less and are giving up inducements, be ready to get hammered badly.
Fouling - I think its been nerfed too hard. DP getting the nerf has been a long awaited change. But considering its now easier to get sent off with the doubles on either roll, was there any need to get rid of Argue the call and the +1 to armour for the foul itself?
In short, if I were to run a league using a combo of rules, I'd have:
Vault Skills (excepting any of the changes made to mutations after 1.7) - and I'd probably ditch Piling On as a skill (I tend to think this skill has caused more problems than its worth in most of its iterations, and with greater options in strength skills isn't needed).
Apoth becomes 2+ and BH.
I'd stick with CEM, but would consider applying it to something like the existing match winnings table (depending on whether I thought the better apoth fixed up the problems mentioned above sufficiently).
Inducements would be cards only. These would be in bigger decks to increase randomness.
Fouling adds +1 to armour as in LRB. Argue the call is back, with an extra random player being sentoff on a 1 to make it more even in terms of risk vs reward.
Keep the secret weapons - in fact I'd consider expanding them further to more teams |
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chunky - you are eloquence on legs |
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Snappy_Dresser
Joined: Feb 11, 2005
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Jul 29, 2005 - 07:14 |
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| Mully wrote: | | Vault still sucks my schwang .... the eventual impetus for some of us to quit BB |
Bye.
Sorry, but this stance really irks me.
As for the rules, I'm not sure about a couple, but overall, I like 'em. |
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OldBugman
Joined: May 05, 2005
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Jul 29, 2005 - 07:26 |
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is the goblin roster correct? |
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chunky04
Joined: Aug 11, 2003
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Jul 29, 2005 - 09:29 |
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Snappy-Dresser, it would have done the same for me 6 months ago. Now I can see where people are coming from.
The game ain't broken - there are a few things that may be a bit out of whack, but for the majority of players in tabletop leagues its fine. Yet the Vault is actually a substantial change - it does feel like playing a different game. To me it feels more blase than LRB. Its a decent game, but its not one I'd be as willing to devote time and money to as the status quo. If Vault continues on its vurrent path, I'm fortunate enough that I'll have LRB based blood bowl options, but I doubt I'll be playing any Vault. If you're only resource for playing involves Vault leagues, I can easily see people quitting BB altogether.
The interesting question to me is whether or not fumbbl will end up changing. If Christer or Skijunkie feel the same way as I do, I can't honestly see them wanting to put in the effort required to make the change to Vault. If the community were to split, I could easily see fumbbl disappearing - this is the sort of thing I find worrying about the Vault - its kinda like the Y2K bug in 1999 - I hope it ends up being a speedbump at worst like that was. |
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chunky - you are eloquence on legs |
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LordDanjel
Joined: Jul 31, 2004
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Jul 29, 2005 - 11:06 |
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Looks funny to me, especially the change of skills/mutations etc. Haven't read the whole thing yet but was wondering why leader is now a passing skill?? |
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“No matter how powerful the Jenoine, a Morganti dagger between the shoulder blades will seriously cramp its style.” (S.Brust) |
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Webbe
Joined: Aug 13, 2003
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Jul 29, 2005 - 11:54 |
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Not that I've been around alot in the vault discussion but I think leader is made passing skill mostly to lessen the amount of players being able to get it on a normal roll, and also to geta a quaterback feeling in the game.
also, overall I like vault, but there will be a lot of bugs (ie need for balancing) as it's more or less a brand new ruleset, hopefully most of these can be eliminated at the testing stadium.
btw, someone mentioned gnoblars instead of snotlings for the ogre team. This is totally wrong as gnoblars is a newly inventioned race in WHFB. Blood Bowl is another world and snotlings have history playing with ogres (2ed) so they are definately more appropriate than both gnoblars and gobbos. |
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Optihut
Joined: Dec 16, 2004
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Jul 29, 2005 - 12:08 |
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It's normal that some people are of the opinion that the "old" version is always best. A friend of mine played the first incarnation of Bloodbowl and hated the one we're playing now with LRB4. *shrugs* That doesn't mean new versions automatically suck, though.
I read through the vault rules yesterday and as others have noted, there are things I like and things I dislike. Overall, the pros seem to outweigh the cons, but as with all games extensive playtesting should bring this to light.
I really love the new kickoff table, especially the importance of cheerleaders and assistent coaches. Back before fanfactor was more useful, but now the coaches and cheerleaders tremendously influence their kickoff results. Furthermore changing weather always has some sort of effect - yay!
Low fanfactor doesn't influence winnings all that much and increases the opponent's winnings. That means no more whines "I'm only playing against teams with at least 9 fanfactor, wah, wah, wah!" (here's hoping we don't see the opposite "I'm only playing against teams with at most 5 fanfactor, because I want my +2 FAME...")
The new Skills allow for weak teams to compete with the bashers, so they stand a chance against the teams whose only purpose is to annihilate other teams - very good!
Downgraded Apo - The apo use is going to be restricted to deaths, which means more serious injuries. Niggling injuries aren't all that serious anymore. A perfect solution.
Player cost - depending on what the guy can do, instead of some spp number. Now the player only adds more to teamrating if he can do more and a +ST is a bigger increase than a normal skill: Excellent change there!
Unfortunately there are also bad issues:
Boosting Darkelves - could someone explain to me why one of the strongest teams, if not the strongest team overall, needs a new playertype?
Splitting jump up into two skills is good, but giving those two skills to witch elves and norse blitzers is a bad call, imho. They should only get Spring Back.
No ageing??? I would have liked to see ageing tied to the amount of games, instead of the amount of extra skills. Then again, this would boost elves even more, which would only encourage more complaints from the razor sharp fangs/claws crowd. Perhaps ageing should have stayed as it is, especially with niggling injuries not disabling a player nowadays.
The biggest "bah" factor are the special play cards, though. A scaled kickoff table would have been much better (especially in light of a java client...)
Mistakes:
The skills of Looney and Pogoer on the Goblin Roster are switched.
EDIT: A little addendum - the current combos don't work anymore, but there are new boons for the basher teams. While the above mentioned mummies with jump up aren't much of a concern (after all, they only get jump up on a double and since jump up has been split into two skills, they only get either standing up for free and blocking or standing up for free on a move, not both), the powerful addition that I see is Chaos Warriors with tentacles on a normal roll. Running away won't be as easy for elves, so it remains to be seen whether the bashy teams are really that screwed over as the "We want +2 on armour and injuries!" lobby wants to make me believe.
EDIT#2: Passblock and Jump Up finally work together again (at least according to their wording).
EDIT#3: I just did a rough calculation (by rough I mean I might have made a mistake adding and I took into consideration the 6th skill, even though it is awarded in place of the 7th in Vault) and come up with a rating of 329 under the vault rules for the juzam jinns (kudos for rising to the top and still playing orc and chaos teams, by the way) http://fumbbl.com/FUMBBL.php?page=team&op=view&showmatches=1&team_id=44603
With LRB4 they have got 401/314. One of my own teams, the fazing fiends, would have 187 instead of the 179/192 it has got now. So vault team rating seems to be closer to what the strength of the team is, instead of this inflated value of the LRB (which doesn't even matter, because after 101 difference, there won't be any more handicaps). The good thing is that someone who almost exclusively plays against elven teams that are significantly lower in teamrating can't inflate his teamstrength all that much in order to reach the top spot of the table. Besides, always downplaying is going to have a few nasty surprises with the inducements.
EDIT#4: Starplayers. Good to see Morg is back to his old "any team" entry. Downgrading Griff Oberwald stinks, though. At the very least, I'd have expected him to be a Fan Favourite nowadays :p |
Last edited by Optihut on %b %29, %2005 - %13:%Jul; edited 4 times in total |
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torsoboy
Joined: Nov 23, 2004
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Jul 29, 2005 - 12:15 |
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Grab seems to be a great skill to set up one-turn TDs. Wrestle is nice if you just HAVE TO take down the ballcarrier. Juggernaut seems to be a great skill for crowding purposes. What annoys me is that my favorite team (HUMANS) still seem to be in the low end, strength wise. Although with the nerfing of a lot of other teams they rise just a bit in power. Orcs are still too good IMO - but that's never going to change. Regenerate seems to be the way to go if you want the team to last.
Mixed feelings. |
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The plural of anecdote isn't data. |
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SnakeSanders
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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Jul 29, 2005 - 12:18 |
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I can understand where you are coming from, the anti vault stance hasnt built up a great reputation, Darkson (and a few others) are the only ones providing constructive critisisms, compared to the noisy minority 
Not that im trying to be a sheep Chunky, but i can see the logic in what you would use in your league with regard to fouling etc. Having thought about it for a while, I think that fouling isnt the problem, DP is the problem. +2 is just far too good, IMHO i feel that if DP was reduced down to +1 and Argue the call was kept it would be enough. Im not sure I understand you about a random player being booted as well, losing 2 players for a foul? 
Im happy that the random card events are there for the folks who want to use them instead of inducements, while dull, they do the job they are supposed to. The choice between the two is good in my opinion! The optional rules in the Vault LRB are good
I too would like to see more secret weapons, id even go as far to say id like to see the Slann take to the field but Galak says they wont be 
My main gripe with Claw in the LRB is that you get coaches who load it up with DP and just obliterate teams. Now, (I shouldnt use FUMBBL as an example as the vault want designed with it primarily in mind but...) Claw/Mighty Blow on Elves is not a good idea as in the LRB an effective AV of 5 doesnt lead me to seek out Chaos teams to play with my wood elves. We all know how that is a problem in a massive league here! Instead of a skill you load up on to kill everything, Claw has become a speciality skill used for 1-2 players, much like Strip Ballers. Claw/Mighty Blow is still good as they still stack, i dont know the figures but in general, the cas% is roughly the same/slightly less as what we have now
The apoth is a sticky one for me. Its a bit weak in the vault atm but depending on your viewpoint it can be fun/annoying. Seeing the apoth make a bothched job on your niggled star and killing him would either drive you mad or make you laugh about it! If it changed back to LRB I wouldnt mind at all, but I would be interested to see how the upgradeable apoth rules could work in a vault setting, could be nice in a perpetual league setting.
Id be interested to see what Galak/Doubleskuklls feel about your thoughts. I know I got extremely fed up of it around 1.3 when it was changing every other day, but I am growing to like it more everyday. Its nowhere near perfect but its 100% better than TR system and the pointless handicap table and RSC/Claw, multi DP/GTR we have now
Rob |
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thesquig
Joined: Apr 11, 2004
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Jul 29, 2005 - 14:03 |
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I like some of the changes. Its still gonna be fun when they change it and I'll still play it. Change isnt always such a bad thing people |
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Nuffle Sucks!!!
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Shintyboy
Joined: Jan 29, 2005
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Jul 29, 2005 - 14:46 |
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I like most of the changes.
Thick skull is now 1/2 decent although yay, safe throw has been weakened again boo, I like the dauntless rule yay.
As I said with 1.8 I think that norse are weak enough already without weakening jump up and block (with wrestle) and they still need strengthened.
Also I agree with deathgerbil that traits are useful to prevent unrealistic and broken skill combinations.
Overall thoughg good job. |
Last edited by Shintyboy on %b %29, %2005 - %14:%Jul; edited 1 time in total |
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