spelledaren
Joined: Mar 06, 2004
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Aug 18, 2005 - 10:08 |
 
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I really like the orc linemen getting Av8! This makes them kinda crappy, but I felt that Av9 for 50k made orc linos among the better.
Also, 90k for the blitzers is good.
I want Varag to have Stand Firm instead of Jump Up.
Nice dwarf team! Make the beards 60k and all is fine. With orcs down to av8 for linos this makes beards very good, and special, even without tackle. Tackle instaed of Piling On for Grim?
Remove tackle for the chaos dwarves? It makes sense to do it. But keep their cost at 70k. |
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spelledaren
Joined: Mar 06, 2004
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Aug 18, 2005 - 10:42 |
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Had made no comment on the undead teams...
110k for flesh golems perhaps?
50k for the Thralls.
Otherwise...I like the undead team. 6 players with strength access should be enough to be able to compete.
I get a feeling the necros aren't as good...but maybe wolves really are that good. |
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BigMac
Joined: Dec 19, 2004
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Aug 18, 2005 - 12:05 |
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| spelledaren wrote: | Had made no comment on the undead teams...
110k for flesh golems perhaps?
50k for the Thralls. |
Those price tweaks could be intresting if the teams basically work and are fun to play but need just a little adjustment. To start with a lower number of changes is propably better.
| Quote: |
Otherwise...I like the undead team. 6 players with strength access should be enough to be able to compete.
I get a feeling the necros aren't as good...but maybe wolves really are that good. |
I think the Undead Team is brilliant (cough). It has the look and feel of the classic Undead team, is hard hitting but fragile and at the same time tough with regenerate. It's a blood bowl team with a ballgame but its also grinding. I think its great fun to play with and against this team. They are scary but not terrorish and they are good but beatable... sweet.
If necromantic turn out to not live up to the expectations on 4 wolves, there are a couple of options to tweak them, but competing with elves and humans, chances are they rule. They are not supposed to outbash the tougher teams though. With regenerate all over i expect them to be able to freeboot Frank'n'Stein a lot, which makes 3 Flesh Golems if they have the money... |
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spelledaren
Joined: Mar 06, 2004
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Aug 21, 2005 - 11:48 |
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4 Ag for the amazon catcher? Suppose they have to get it, to be different from regular humans...and to give the team a chance. Ok.
Ma5 for throwers is really bad. Still, 3 skills for start. Diversity is nice.
I like the norse. They got another feeling now, a better one I would say. They don't feel as boring and unneccessary.
Why Av9 for Zug? I want it to be 8. Why Av8 for Zara? Make it 7.
And - I don't like it when you can buy a permanent star. |
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AFK_Eagle
Joined: Mar 12, 2004
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Aug 22, 2005 - 18:29 |
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Current rules state that, on fumbbl at least, if both teams arrive with the same star in their pocket, he/she/it doesn't play for either team. So one team purchases Griff for 300k to be permanently on his roster, his opponent sees this and spends 75k for a single game with him, and has effectively removed Griff from his opponent? Tournaments could become interesting in that way...
And while it would be nice to have a champion permanent, as he said once you get 4-5 skills on your own players purchased for a third the price (or much less), your player will generally be better. And can you imagine the groaning that would occur if somebody bought a champion for 300k after saving for 30 games, only to get niggled/RIP in the first game? LOL
That said, I don't think it would be overpowering for allowing permanent purchases again. (Once upon a time, you could...) PROVIDED the cost was kept high enough to make you think twice. This would mostly impact upon tournament play I imagine, since in ranked it wouldn't be any different to your opponent if you freebooted or purchased the champion--you're facing him this game, and you don't care what your opponent's roster looks like for NEXT game, only THIS one.
Glad to see you didn't mess with the human roster much. Can't mess with perfection! lol Seriously, it's already one of the best balanced teams out there... Nice to see a bit more speed added to the amazon/norse squads in their catcher/runner positions. Definitely adds a lot more flexibility in tactical options to the teams, especially late-game where speed in scoring is critical. Not sure about allowing 4 agi 4 players on the amazon team, though...maybe 2 at best... Disagree with reducing the norse lineman speed, however. After this change, basically you have dwarven longbeards, marginally faster and far weaker av-wise. At least if they keep the ma 6, they have a few more tactical uses than simply stand in the way like dwarves do...
I still wanna see what you "propose" for the skaven squad!! |
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Listen to Eagle! Eagle is good, Eagle is wise!
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AFK_Eagle
Joined: Mar 12, 2004
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Aug 23, 2005 - 00:22 |
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Racial traits instead of mutations...so what, gutters come with two heads already? And no chance of picking up additional mutations? Yes, I can fully agree with you already, I am going to hate the concept. Remove mutations from skaven, and what do you have? Agi 3 woodies. Really, what difference is there between a woodie catcher and a gutter runner, if not mutations? Skaven linerats dying quickly for their low av as now, but without hopes of getting any useful skills to speak of? I'm sorry, I might be in favor of enforcing actually random mutations, but removing them altogether will not get my vote.
There, I've said it, I'm awaiting your suggestions with a pre-existing negative attitude. Your job to convince me otherwise. |
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Listen to Eagle! Eagle is good, Eagle is wise!
Founder of the E.L.F.--These elves will play anybody! |
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AFK_Eagle
Joined: Mar 12, 2004
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Aug 23, 2005 - 17:15 |
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Ok, I will try to be open minded and look at your modifications to the skaven team with an objective viewpoint:
They look a bit weak, IMHO. Yes, there are now 4 blitzers with strength access, something which was sorely lacking on the "old" skaven team. However, the players seem to have been pidgeon-holed a bit too much for my taste, especially the gutters. Yes, it is quite true a large number of skaven coaches make it a point to give VLL to their gutters to become better scoring machines. However, by giving it to them to start and restricting any other choices, that's ALL a gutter is good for from now on. Never again will we see a dauntless/horned gutter come tearing at your player by himself; FA passblockers are gone; even the useful (if not often seen) diving tackle/prehensile tail gutters. Now, the gutter is pretty much required to be a dedicated scoring machine, or else not much use. Even then, he's missing out on several useful mutations to enhance this ability--two heads for dodging, extra hands to catch handoffs easier, etc. A skaven passer without mutations to allow Big Hands and similar is no better than a human passer. Linerats have no useful skills to look forward to, low armor to expect a short lifespan, and no special agility to regain lost skills once replaced.
Kinda confused about the "secret weapon" vs champion issue...so you can purchase or freeboot a champion, but a secret weapon is freeboot only? Am I reading that correct?
You have declared an unwillingness to discuss removal of mutations, and that means we don't have much left to discuss, you and I. As a dedicated skaven coach, I'm all about the mutations. Without them, I might as well just play a woodie or human team, as the current skaven squad looks like merely a blend of the two. I understand you are attempting to simplify the ruleset, and agree what you have done would do so. I just disagree in the necessity of this radical change to the team.
(Yes, I did slide a bit more towards being inflammatory as the post progressed, I apologize for that. Maybe I'm just being stubborn and not liking to see change to my favorite team. Perhaps I just need the reasoning explained in a different way to me, calmly and rationally. Until then...) |
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Listen to Eagle! Eagle is good, Eagle is wise!
Founder of the E.L.F.--These elves will play anybody! |
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BigMac
Joined: Dec 19, 2004
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Aug 23, 2005 - 18:05 |
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No problem really i can totally understand your point and its absolutely valid.
Thats why i didn't want to discuss it because basically, there is no point in discussing it. You are right it takes away from the Skaven and Chaos.
But i decided to do it because skaven and chaos are only 2 teams out of the 18 i want to include.
You got the Secret Weapon vs Champion thing absolutely correctly.
Secret Weapons are players that are not based on players on the roster and/or have abilites that are not availiable to players on the roster.
Secret Weapons can be a Goblin with a Chainsaw or a Rat Ogre with a prehensile tail.
The gutter runners MA is 9 including VLL, so he just gets +1 to all interceptions right from the start. GR should be the ideal pass blockers now.
Great Skill choices are Shadowing, Diving Tackle, Tackle, Pass Block, Catch, Block, +1AV/MA/AG/ST, Side Step - personally i think the mutations created less interesting defenders.
The way i wanna put it, almost all of the Whacky Blood Bowl things stay in the game.
Every Team gets its own specific "Big Guy" - the Champions of the Team, and all of the teams get to freeboot "Star Players" who are their Secret Weapons. Like erm Michael Jordan beeing the Champion and Steve Kerry beeing the Secret Weapon for a Basketball team, you know more literally put.
I'll post the suggested skill system with these team lists later - you can simply add "m" to all of the skaven and chaos players and rule physical abilities back in.
It's just that i feel more comfortable to be able to control balance without them.
So you think skaven are to weak? What about chaos? And did you include all of the other races becoming a bit weaker into your estamination?
Is the Skaven champion OK and can you live with Rat Ogre's only beeing availiable as freebooted Headsplitter plus he gained Frenzy and Wild Animal? |
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AFK_Eagle
Joined: Mar 12, 2004
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Aug 23, 2005 - 19:40 |
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I can tell you right now, if an RO is only available as a freeboot, while still having the frenzy/WA, then I will never hire one. Period. They are terrific big guys, but they take some degree of coaching and patience to get a skillset with them, and to spend money on such an unreliable player for only a single game...ain't gonna happen. Many skaven coaches never hire one to begin with, so they don't care, but I quite often have a special place in my heart for the RO's I've fielded.
Also have to glare at the chaos in comparison, who get their four CW's with str 4/claw/av 9 to START, plus a str 5/claw/av 9 champion they can PURCHASE, and only 65k to freeboot a str 6/av 9 mino (easily affordable every couple games). You trying to reduce the power of most teams? You just made chaos over the top harder, my friend. Yes, claws might be very, VERY common for CW's, but to start with it will absolutely kill lower TR teams they play against. And my little str 3/av 7 guys, without access to skills to help offset (FA, dodge, claw), well, don't expect many high-tr skaven/chaos games. (Think they don't play as it is? My skaven do, and we're #2 in the land...)
The skaven champion is ok, though you seem to love sticking DP on the champions I've noticed. Kinda doubt it'll get used much outside of goblins on the champs, given their price to use in the first place, so all it's doing is adding to their price for having another skill.
Yes, I looked at the other teams being reduced in power when I said the skaven are still too weak--as said, they're like humans but with less armor, or elves but with less agility. And by nerfing the gutters potential to fill any role you can dream, they don't even have their best weapon anymore. (And I acknowledge your opinion that mutations made less interesting gutter defenders, though I disagree completely--it's the mutations which kept them from being carbon copies of one another.) |
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Listen to Eagle! Eagle is good, Eagle is wise!
Founder of the E.L.F.--These elves will play anybody! |
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BigMac
Joined: Dec 19, 2004
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Aug 23, 2005 - 20:23 |
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| AFK_Eagle wrote: | | I can tell you right now, if an RO is only available as a freeboot, while still having the frenzy/WA, then I will never hire one. Period. They are terrific big guys, but they take some degree of coaching and patience to get a skillset with them, and to spend money on such an unreliable player for only a single game...ain't gonna happen. Many skaven coaches never hire one to begin with, so they don't care, but I quite often have a special place in my heart for the RO's I've fielded. |
Just a quick clarification - it's not a Rookie Rat Ogre, it's Headsplitter (+Frenzy, +Wild Animal).
| AFK_Eagle wrote: | | Also have to glare at the chaos in comparison, who get their four CW's with str 4/claw/av 9 to START, plus a str 5/claw/av 9 champion they can PURCHASE, and only 65k to freeboot a str 6/av 9 mino (easily affordable every couple games). You trying to reduce the power of most teams? You just made chaos over the top harder, my friend. Yes, claws might be very, VERY common for CW's, but to start with it will absolutely kill lower TR teams they play against. And my little str 3/av 7 guys, without access to skills to help offset (FA, dodge, claw), well, don't expect many high-tr skaven/chaos games. (Think they don't play as it is? My skaven do, and we're #2 in the land...) |
Well, Chaos Warriors also increased in cost and lost access to further potentially imbalancing skills like razor sharp fangs. So balance can easily be adressed, for example by making "Claws" +1 to AV Rolls only, since the only other players with Claws left in the game are werewolves. The positive effect of this change is that it helps for Chaos Teams to develop faster, something that was called for by many leagues that played to win a championship, where Chaos usually starts with a loosing streak. It is absolutely intended to see Lord Borkak join Chaos Teams at some later point, 3rd Edition refered to him as the "Champion of Chaos" and thats exactly what i want him to be! Also, Minotaurs are welcome to be joining Chaos Teams quite often, it gives the team even more Character - but still you don't want to run into a Minotaur, or even Worse Ogre in every single game against this side... You know i'm absolutely aware that this team is over the top scary, and thats what i want it to be. If Halflings are meant to suck, then Chaos are meant to be feared. (Having said that, i'd most likely vote for Claws to be reduced to +1 after some playtesting).
| AFK_Eagle wrote: | | The skaven champion is ok, though you seem to love sticking DP on the champions I've noticed. Kinda doubt it'll get used much outside of goblins on the champs, given their price to use in the first place, so all it's doing is adding to their price for having another skill. |
Erm you are wrong here, all of the Champions are basically the LRB Star Players - with the exeption of Frank'n'Stein the Flesh Golem and Hakflem Skuttlespike the Skaven Blitzer, i made those two up. Borak & Hubris officially came with Dirty Player ever since.
| AFK_Eagle wrote: | | Yes, I looked at the other teams being reduced in power when I said the skaven are still too weak--as said, they're like humans but with less armor, or elves but with less agility. And by nerfing the gutters potential to fill any role you can dream, they don't even have their best weapon anymore. (And I acknowledge your opinion that mutations made less interesting gutter defenders, though I disagree completely--it's the mutations which kept them from being carbon copies of one another.) |
Ok the mutation discussion aside - there are still plenty of skills to pick - what do you think would be the problem withthe suggested skaven team and what tweaks would you like to see for that proposed team list? |
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AFK_Eagle
Joined: Mar 12, 2004
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Aug 23, 2005 - 21:54 |
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| BigMac wrote: | | ...Just a quick clarification - it's not a Rookie Rat Ogre, it's Headsplitter (+Frenzy, +Wild Animal). |
Haven't looked at the site's version of Headsplitter yet, but your version--6/6/3/9 with mb/prehensile tail/frenzy/WA--is for all intents and purposes a stronger, more agile and better armored rookie RO. A rookie RO currently is 6/5/2/8 with mb/prehensile tail/frenzy/WA...
| BigMac wrote: | | ...balance can easily be adressed, for example by making "Claws" +1 to AV Rolls only, since the only other players with Claws left in the game are werewolves. The positive effect of this change is that it helps for Chaos Teams to develop faster, something that was called for by many leagues that played to win a championship, where Chaos usually starts with a loosing streak... |
Ok, I can see the point you're making here, admittedly chaos are very slow starters. But given the sheer power they wield later, when every single player can have guard/block/tackle/mb on normal rolls, plus the extra str/av and now guaranteed claws to CW's, they'll not only be scary later but also to begin with. I'm just thinking about how people are paranoid to play tr 100 necros thanks to two str 3 claws; now imagine your tr 100, being offered a game vs four str 4 claws...gonna accept? (In theory possible, if a guy went 4 CW, 7 Beastmen, 1 RR and low ff.)
| BigMac wrote: | | ...erm you are wrong here, all of the Champions are basically the LRB Star Players - with the exeption of Frank'n'Stein the Flesh Golem and Hakflem Skuttlespike the Skaven Blitzer, i made those two up. Borak & Hubris officially came with Dirty Player ever since. |
Conceeded.
| BigMac wrote: | | Ok the mutation discussion aside - there are still plenty of skills to pick - what do you think would be the problem withthe suggested skaven team and what tweaks would you like to see for that proposed team list? |
Congratulations, BigMac. In many of the other threads going around, you have received a reputation as being exceedingly rude and agressive in responding to somebody who disagrees with your opinion. This last statement and question of yours is a perfect example of keeping calm, cool and intelligent, asking adversaries for clarification and at least appearing willing to alter your own viewpoint based on the logical merits of the other person's arguments. A very mature response, and I will reply in kind.
Assuming for the moment you are not allowed to include additional mutations beyond the ones the players have when purchased, then I agree with what was done to the storm vermin, giving them foul appearance. They are the enforcers of the skaven world, meant to be intimidating and fearsome looking. I would, however, return block as a starting skill, even if you add 10k to their base price.
Skaven thrower, just to keep a mutated rat feeling, is the guy who is used to pick up the ball and coordinate everybody else. I think giving him Big Hand to start instead of surehands won't be overpowering, but will give a very good reason to actually hire a skaven thrower, instead of simply relying upon the gutters to fill that position. I've had big handed skaven throwers before, and believe me, your tactical world expands exponentially with just that skill...
Really not sure what to do about linerats if you bar them mutating. For only 50k, you really don't want one to come with special skills already, but then their advancement becomes exceedingly stagnant when they have general only, aren't as hardy as human linemen and can't do the dodgy stuff of elven linemen. But then, the main linerat purpose is to provide tz's, run interference to protect the gutters/thrower, and lend assists to the storm vermin, and barring them mutations doesn't prevent them from doing any of these, so I guess call them good as is. (You just won't see some of the fantastically wacky linerats like I've had on my teams at times, the truly memorable ones...)
Lack of a permanent RO, no big deal really, a lot of skaven coaches don't even employ one as things are. Not sure you can really qualify Headsplitter's "prehensile tail" as a "secret weapon" as he's not built to make the most use of it, but whatever.
Skaven champion...I agree it should be a storm vermin persona, rather than yet another uber gutter, as skaven teams will almost never have problems scoring, but often need assists in the strength aspect of the game. In that spirit, he needs to be able to assist the other team members in what they do, hitting harder and standing his ground. Making him 7439 is perfect, a little stronger and longer lasting than a normal storm vermin. Block/mb is a pre-requisite as well. But the starting bonus skills I think need a bit of a change...he's a hitter, not a hittee. So drop the jump up (that's more a gutter skill), and give him horns, so he can really lay the hammer down when he charges. Given his str 4 he won't use the skill that much, but when the enemy has a CW holding the ball and you can't get assists near... And since this is one star you created instead of copied, drop the DP for guard, a skill sorely lacking on a skaven squad, showing how he's a "captain of the guard" type and directing those rats nearest him in better, more organized combat.
The real difficulty comes regarding the gutter runners, who currently are the masters of the multi-role. With the right mutations, they become incredible blitzers, ball retrievers, passblockers, scorers... But giving them VLL and only VLL (which, if you want the speed already factored in, means they should be mv 8 VLL, giving a final effective result of mv 9 +1 int) severely limits their roles. They now become woodelf catchers who are marginally better at intercepting passes. But how often does interception attempts come up, vs other skills--dodging, trailing the opposition catchers, etc. I think two heads would be more beneficial--there are endless occasions when +1 to dodge would mean a world of difference! If you really want to emphasize their small and speedy nature, make them stunty with two heads...dodging through large crowds of enemy players' legs trying to make a grab at the ball...I can envision the scene in my mind's eye, it's beautiful! At least this way, you can dodge your way to the endzone, or dodge your way towards an interception attempt, or dodge your way to pick up a loose ball...infinitely more useful than simply +1 int... |
_________________
Listen to Eagle! Eagle is good, Eagle is wise!
Founder of the E.L.F.--These elves will play anybody! |
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BigMac
Joined: Dec 19, 2004
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Aug 24, 2005 - 08:16 |
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Man i can't help but get the impression it's you who wants to be overpowering the Skaven... 
Team: SKAVEN| Code: | 50K Lineman 7|3|3|7 16 G/ASP
70K Thrower 7|3|3|7 Pass, Big Hands 2 GP/AS
90K Runner 9|2|4|7 Two Heads, Very Long Legs 4 GA/SP
90K Blitzer 7|3|3|7 Horns, Foul Appearance 4 GS/AP |
Champion: HAKFLEM SKUTTLESPIKE| Code: | | 260K Blitzer 7|4|3|8 Horns, Foul Appearance, Block, Dirty Player, Guard, Jump Up |
Changes: | Code: | Lineman: +4 Slots, -Physical
Thrower: -Sure Hands, +Big Hands, -Physical
Runner: +10K, -Dodge, +Two Heads, +Verry Long Legs, -Physical
Blitzer: -1 AV, -Block, +Horns, +Foul Appearance, +2 Slots, -Physical
Champion: Added
Re-roll: -10K |
It would be nice to hear some more oppinions on those last couple of teams... 
OK some comments...
Linemen: those guys can go for guard, block, tackle, +ST, +AV, dirty player they are just linemen after all.
Thrower: well this may be brilliant. afaik big hands is worse than sure hands for ordinary pick ups right? but it owns if the ball is in a mess, so this is my favorite tweak.
Blitzer: you got 4 vermins now, so forget about the gutter runner blitzer conversion exept vs other catchers who i made constantly ST2 if you look them up (elf, human, wood elf, amazon). Mutations are starting skills only under this theorybowl scenario, so Storm Vermins had to Start with Horns if their Storm Vermin Champion is supposed to have it. Well, AV7 Horns & Foul appearance and 4 of them - this might work.
Runner: I'm sorry your Gutter Runer fetish escapes me, they are not going to be AG5 dodge stunty two heads, they are annoying enough already! I switched Dodge with Two Hands just to see it in print - well admittedly it might work since its actually worse than dodge, makes them break easier at start but makes them play more sneaky. I just don't fall in love with it right away. MA9 + VLL as starting skill should be pretty clear. The VLL is why its MA9. To clarify, i'd rather loose the +1MA part from the skill description. Oh and you dont get the potential of this togeher with pass block. AG5 interceptions shut down Humans, Amazons, Wood Elfes, Elves - first all out anti passing race. Thats my underlying idea.
Champion: ok i gave you guard together with Jump Up but lost the Mighty Blow. Dirty Player must stay its a personality issue and a bit of a handicap, i wanna see people tricked into fouling with this guy and loose him due to their gerred for blood and it ads 20k of cost without much benefit.
Secret Weapon: Dude, come on a ST6 guy with a prehensile tail is an Asset. at this point you really start to lose credibility, i know skave is your favorite race but you know you can't have it all layed out... |
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spelledaren
Joined: Mar 06, 2004
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Aug 24, 2005 - 10:42 |
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Hmm.
What's this about secret weapons? Just drop them, no no no, bad idea. (not thinking about goblins now...)
With that said. On to comments.
Linerats without mutations is fine. They are still MA7. But what have you done with the runners? Only need 1 skill to become one-turners? What are you thinking? I like them at MA9, so keep that, but lose the mutation. They can still opt for dauntless later, so saying that they are forced into running only is not true. I don't want any other skill on them really, and then they can cost 80k again.
Storm Vermin. Both Block and FA..hmmm, well, sure. 100k for them then. Perhaps give them Horns instaed of FA? More punch.
The throwers are good enough. Ma7 for a thrower is great, and while the runners might be better passers, they don't want to take Pass on a double, so a dedicated thrower is still worth it.
Chaos. This chaos team would rip the necro one a new a*****e. The edge given to the necros are those 4 claws they got now. Chaos does not need to get the same bonus. I can consider diving the warriors Spikes, making them Av10. This would be much appreciated by chaos coaches, while not overpowering them. 110k for them? |
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BigMac
Joined: Dec 19, 2004
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Aug 24, 2005 - 14:25 |
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| spelledaren wrote: | | What's this about secret weapons? |
Secret Weapons will be like the LRB 4.0 Star Players, freebooters only.
Horkon, Nobbla, Fungus, and all the others just like you know them.
However, the access to teams may change. In addition there is a new type of "Secret Weapon" that is players that don't have a item like a chainsaw, but something pretty special like a Prehensile Tail, or Thrud's Fans, or a huge Minotaur with Horns and ST6. Technically the difference to Champions is that those can not be permanent and have no corresponding rookie player on the team list.
| Quote: | | But what have you done with the runners? Only need 1 skill to become one-turners? What are you thinking? |
Its MA9 BECAUSE of VLL, its total MA9. So the runner needs 2x +1MA to be a one turner - and possibly under the Vault Rules maximum for all stats is 10. So this is AGAINST one turners, and the runner only gains +1 to interceptions.
| Quote: | | Storm Vermin. Both Block and FA..hmmm, well, sure. 100k for them then. Perhaps give them Horns instaed of FA? More punch. |
4 Starting Skaven players with block is not gonna happen. Horns is damn good. AV8 Foul Appearance or AV7 Horns, Foul Appearance. I favour AV8.
| Quote: | | The throwers are good enough. Ma7 for a thrower is great, and while the runners might be better passers, they don't want to take Pass on a double, so a dedicated thrower is still worth it. |
Big Hands rather than Sure Hands sounds pretty cool though... ?!
| Quote: | | Chaos. This chaos team would rip the necro one a new a*****e. The edge given to the necros are those 4 claws they got now. Chaos does not need to get the same bonus. I can consider diving the warriors Spikes, making them Av10. This would be much appreciated by chaos coaches, while not overpowering them. 110k for them? |
There are no more spikes, +1MA is availiable as a statistics increase. (Either 9 +1MA or 10 +1MA/+1AV). Chaos Warriors will get claws, and Mutations will no longer be availiable as acessable skills. IF Claws are to good, then make them "+1" no longer "+2". |
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AFK_Eagle
Joined: Mar 12, 2004
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Aug 24, 2005 - 21:23 |
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I'm curious if you've had bad experiences playing against prehensile tails before, because quite honestly the mutation by itself is next to useless. The only ones likely to dodge away will have more than enough agility to get away from -1 dodge; the others won't be dodging, but rather hitting instead. Only time I've seen prehensile tail effective is when mixed with diving tackle, giving total -3 to dodge roll, which even elves will think twice about, especially if you have tackle to negate the dodge-skill free reroll. But on a one-game freeboot w/o dt or tackle, it's nothing special. Yes, he's str 6, terrific, but the tail on him hardly qualifies as a "secret weapon" IMHO.
Who says that if the champion is based on a storm vermin, then all storm vermin have to be miniature champion wannabees? Make the stock storm vermin block/FA, to show he's a brute squad type of soldier who looks very intimidating. Now, make the champion a "captain of the soldiers", something even more hideous, by adding the horns/MB to him to show he really, really knows how to put the smack down, in addition to having the block/FA that all SV's start with. The champion can't advance with new skills anyway, so I don't understand your argument that all SV's start with what the champion starts with...he's supposed to be special, after all. I fail to understand having jump up on him, too...7438 block/mb/horns/FA/dp sounds plenty good for me...ofc, he's nothing like the str 5 claw champ of the chaos, but I'd still hire him on a permanent basis...
But then, you have it against skaven getting 4 players with block to start. Why? Humans do, orcs do, the new woodies do...why against this with skaven, esp since you've removed mutations? They definitely need to keep the av8, though, that's a MUST...
BTW, linerats don't have access to guard without double rolls...just want to make the clear, as I'm not sure if you understand that from your earlier comment...
As far as Big Hands vs Sure Hands...by definition, surehands allows a free reroll to pickup the ball when you fail the first time, while big hands allows you to pick up the ball, regardless of agility, tz's, weather, etc, on a 2+, but if you roll a 1 you're out of luck. Combine the two skills, and you have a player who can pick the ball up anywhere, regardless conditions, at 2+ with an automatic reroll should he roll a 1 first time. What you do with the ball after, that's an entirely different question...
Hmm...starting the gutters with two heads but lacking dodge to start their careers, I can see that happening. Agreed, remove the stunty I was throwing around the other day, seen from a fresh perspective I reckon it would be a tad over the top (even if it does impose far more injuries). But I don't understand your own obsession with VLL for the gutters to start...and given the number of elite interception machines I've developed with my skaven, including the #2 interceptor in fumbbl history, I think _I_ can tell _you_ a thing or three about shutting down an opponent's passing attack WITHOUT VLL, thank you very much. And my "gutter runner fetish" stems from the fact they are quite simply the best bloodbowl players out there, period. Mutations, combined with their already freakish speed and agility, means they can fill absolutely ANY roll you need them to. Wardancers start prepackaged better, and CW's might be better at causing injuries, etc, but a developed gutter will do ANYTHING you ask of him, if you've planned properly. Now, he is just being pushed into too narrow a focus for my taste. The skaven strength is flexibility, and I just feel they're being forced to follow in-line with other races, become too similar, too predictable. |
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Listen to Eagle! Eagle is good, Eagle is wise!
Founder of the E.L.F.--These elves will play anybody! |
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