JanMattys
Joined: Feb 29, 2004
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 Posted:
Aug 27, 2005 - 21:25 |
 
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I hate BigMac, I hate his behaviour and I hate almost everything he writes in the forums. 
BUT, he has a point in his first post I think. If fouls would gain you skills, Dirty Players would develop. And if they do develop, they:
a) become valuable assets to the team with their skills (kick, tackle, block in the human lino example), making you think twice before risking them to be sent off.
b) will add to your TR accordingly, making a DP one player like all others and not the veteran who stays around for 100 games untouched and unskilled except for MVPs
Both points A and B are good points.
Problem is that making fouls SPPs machines will ruin the game, imho, making the DP skill too good compared to all others (and beware: I ALREADY think it's too good as it is). So it would become a no-brainer choice for almost all non positionals, and a second choice for (almost) all positionals. As the game is now, the only REAL no-brainer choice is +ST, and maybe Block. I like diversity, and I am all against fixes that produce no-brainer choices.
That's why my point of view is: BigMac's post makes sense, but probably his suggestion would fix the Dirty Players issue while ruining something more important, i.e. game balance overall.
EDIT: To candlejack: let's face the truth: 90% of the DPs are unskilled linos with just the DP skill. This holds true for skaven, orcs, humans, norse, zons, lizards, undead, skeletons, zombies... everything. |
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KRaff
Joined: Aug 20, 2005
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Aug 27, 2005 - 21:29 |
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I don't know about that, Mac.
I had a goblin on my orc team (table top) that had doubles on his first skill up, and it only takes one CAS and a lucky MVP to get there. After taking DP he was going to foul every turn until he fouled out. It didn't matter if he wasn't on the pitch or got injured or killed (which he did after 13 games) since, i mean, he's only a goblin. Sure he racked up SPP and TR and might have aged, but who cared if he aged or jacked the TR because he was going to lay someone out. A good trade for me.
I was a little upset when they took out SPP for CAS but in the end; why should dirty play be rewarded past the current match? It's like giving a trophy to the Steroid King or your favorite sport for taking the short cuts. With the comparable difficulty in throwing a block to cause a CAS versus fouling a prone player, especially without any skills, I think that *not* awarding the 2 SPP for a foul is reasonable.
Of course, I remember when players got an experience point just for playing in a match. Then again, the game was *much* different back then.
I miss Troglodytes. |
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origami
Joined: Oct 14, 2003
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Aug 27, 2005 - 21:30 |
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The problem is that most people see gaining SPP as a good thing, regardless of the fact that it isn't necessarily so. Therefore, they would see this as a reason to foul more.
Gaining SPP for fouls would lead to massively increased fouling. |
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JanMattys
Joined: Feb 29, 2004
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Aug 27, 2005 - 21:31 |
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| origami wrote: | The problem is that most people see gaining SPP as a good thing, regardless of the fact that it isn't necessarily so. Therefore, they would see this as a reason to foul more.
Gaining SPP for fouls would lead to massively increased fouling. |
This holds very true. |
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Candlejack
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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Aug 27, 2005 - 21:32 |
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janmattys: but then you would have dp on almost every player.. not just one.. so you can just foul with someone else... |
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Glennfinito
Joined: Aug 13, 2005
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Aug 27, 2005 - 21:37 |
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I'm not argueing against how powerfull Dirty players are.
I'm just thinking it gives a huge advantage to teams with access to cheap (cost<50k) players who can get to general skills without a double
e.g: all kinds of Undead, Chaos Dwarves (hobgoblins) and Vampires (Thralls, yes I know vampires suck and need all the help they can get))
This means I've got a Skeleton with DP, he goes past, say 31 SPP, I fire him and buy a new skeleton, two games later this guy has DP, the cycle continues...
This also applies, to a lesser degree, to all the teams with linemen for 50k.
This means, in short, Elves are fucked And they gain the most benifit from DP, since it is their equalizer. But they are unable to use this trick described since their linemen cost 60k+
I think you are raising a valid point, but your solution is ultimately flawed |
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BigMac
Joined: Dec 19, 2004
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Aug 27, 2005 - 21:38 |
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| Candlejack wrote: | | well toby.. all your reasoning bases on ONE assumption.. a player with dp is not used for anything else than fouling and therefore has no use for other skills.. or more general, that every player has only one sole purpose and therefore does not need more than 2 or 3 skills.. well.. a dp with block/dodge is much harder to get down and therefore harder to take out.. and there would be zillions of other examples when players could very well use several different skills.. |
Of course a Linemen with DP, Block, Dodge is the better blood bowl player.
But he is exactly the same fouler than he was back when he had nothing than DP.
Of course, he is harder to take down but he also adds to much skill and TR to your team to be meant to be sent off early.
If i use Clint Eastwood for he first couple of fouls and he gets sent off (eye), i lose an asset to the team.
So my point is it's next to idiotic to use players that have more skills than just DP to foul. Because those players give you a better chance of winning the game by playing than by taking out an opponent and be sidelined themselves. You really can't give me an argument there.
Notice how long my dirty players live. They are the longest lasting players on average on this team, and thats not coincidence but statistics.
If fouls improve your player, then yes the unskilled lineman gains something from kicking opponents as a couple of SPP are verry welcome for him.
But the dirty player who's job is to foul is PROTECTED by not geting SPP, by not advancing, not ageing, not staying on the field and get knocked down and injured...
My team proves that and why do you think i raise this topic?
Those Dirty Players generate such masses of CAS that if they were reflected in TR i'd be at TR 230+. Start to see the point? It's too bloody easy to keep such an excellent player on the roster, while comparable assets like top blitzers or throwers are exposed to dangers like injuries or ageing all the time and pump your TR to a point where you are just glad to rest them to a rookie and loose 25 or more points of TR.
I'm takling form experience here, just having retired my top blitzer who was about the same casualty threat as the three dirty players together - but he paid for that, while the dp's are out of reach for any real harm. |
Last edited by BigMac on %b %27, %2005 - %21:%Aug; edited 1 time in total |
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Vanguard
Joined: Nov 01, 2003
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Aug 27, 2005 - 21:40 |
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perhabs i am the only one who gets the sense a bit
of course they are fast skilled
and they will be
but your tr increases and so your cash income decline
if you are 250+ team you dont fire a player that easy and there come the mechanism in
you can foul and get spp and your tr goes higher and higher
so it helps the really high teams but destroys the low ones |
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Candlejack
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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Aug 27, 2005 - 21:47 |
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| BigMac wrote: |
If fouls improve your player, then yes the unskilled lineman gains something from kicking opponents as a couple of SPP are verry welcome for him.
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and then he would get dp so you can use the dp with more skills for other purposes and use the rookie dp for the fouling.. so there would be no real drawback again...
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My team proves that and why do you think i raise this topic?
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i better rest my case on that one...
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Start to see the point? |
if you had read my post as good as you tell everyone else to read yours you would have noticed that i already got it.. but you seem not get mine.. |
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Glennfinito
Joined: Aug 13, 2005
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Aug 27, 2005 - 21:53 |
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Perhaps there's some hidden Cipher to BigMac's posts...Since he keeps saying we do not understand.
I think Fouling, and by extension DP, should be revised.
There's not enough risk to it, as BigMac and others also have pointed out |
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BigMac
Joined: Dec 19, 2004
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Aug 27, 2005 - 22:00 |
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gimme your point again then!
i agree unskilled linemen would be encouraged to foul to get 2 free spp, assuming the way the match runs allows it, for example T16 fouls would be the normal thing.
But no, i don't see why DP would be everyones first skill. If you check the movie knights development you see how much DP as a first skill had hurt them during their first crisis.
Unless a player starts with block, DP is a bad first choice for the second and third lineman that gains a skill roll.
As long as i have at least 2 dp's on the team, i'll always pick block first, and DP second unless double=guard.
And that is based on fouling as a core STRATEGY (=makes me win) not random attrition or self defence. |
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Candlejack
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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Aug 27, 2005 - 22:05 |
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at the moment taking dp as first skill for every player is not a good idea.. d'oh?.. i was referring to what it would be like if fouling would give spp.. because THEN it would be great to get dp as soon as possible.. like it was back in the times when it was that way.. |
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BigMac
Joined: Dec 19, 2004
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Aug 27, 2005 - 22:13 |
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to take advantage of DP, you need to knock someone prone, prone in an exposed position in order to foul them.
if you lack the capability to knock people over or have your DP prone at the start of most of your turns, you cant even use the skill.
i agree with fouling to get the first skill would be undoubtably done massively and rightfully so. But that first skill would better be something useful. And DP by itself is not useful.
6 linemen with block are strong. 4 linemen with block and 2 with DP are a force. 6 linemen with DP are a joke. |
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Candlejack
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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Aug 27, 2005 - 22:16 |
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| BigMac wrote: | to take advantage of DP, you need to knock someone prone, prone in an exposed position in order to foul them.
if you lack the capability to knock people over or have your DP prone at the start of most of your turns, you cant even use the skill.
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and that is not possible without block or sth i know.. 2 db are SO overrated..
and btw.. what are your blitzers doing then? standing around and trying to hit on the cheerleaders?..
/me wonders off and shakes head |
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Mully
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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| Posted:
Aug 27, 2005 - 22:16 |
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well toby.. all your reasoning bases on ONE assumption
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ahh Toby a FORCE to be reckoned with |
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