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dlb1969



Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Post   Posted: Jul 01, 2003 - 03:45 Reply with quote Back to top

I just wanted to ask a question and get some opinions about the updated (supposedly more balanced) necro roster; in particular the werewolf. I first want to say that I don't even think the werewolf fits the theme, but that's not for me to decide. Anyway, I have one problem with the werewolf that a friend also pointed out when were having one of our BB discussions. Why is the werewolf the only player to have both a MV8 and AV8? That seems to me, from looking at the other "official teams", to be an unwritten rule that was broken. I also think it is over doing it and probably a bit over powered. If the AV is going to be 8 I think the MV should be dropped to 7.

Just my opinion and observation. What does the rest think?

Dave
gken1



Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Post   Posted: Jul 01, 2003 - 05:10 Reply with quote Back to top

with no apoth i don't mind. But I do say take away the catch and RSC's.

I'd like to see a werewolf 8 3 3 8 with just frenzy...cost around 80-90k

then you turn around and bring back a were wolf team with 16 of these guys....speed kills Smile
dlb1969



Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Post   Posted: Jul 01, 2003 - 15:59 Reply with quote Back to top

gken1 wrote:
with no apoth i don't mind. But I do say take away the catch and RSC's.

I'd like to see a werewolf 8 3 3 8 with just frenzy...cost around 80-90k

then you turn around and bring back a were wolf team with 16 of these guys....speed kills Smile


That still crazy with MV8, AV8, and frenzy. They should not have MV8 and AV8 in my opinion no matter what skills set they start with. I also think that RSC should be taken our or replace with mighty blow. I'm not so worried about catch. They should still be MV7 if they are going to have AV8 though.

Dave
dlb1969



Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Post   Posted: Jul 01, 2003 - 16:03 Reply with quote Back to top

I also think the flesh golem is over the top too with 4 4 2 9 stand firm, break tackle, regen, and thick skull. That makes a black orc look like a loser of a player. I can see stand firm and thick skull, but regen I think is a reach and break tackle makes not sense to me. I could live with them being their current stat line with stand firm, thick skull, and regen; but not break tackle.

Dave
Mnemon



Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Post   Posted: Jul 01, 2003 - 16:22 Reply with quote Back to top

I still don't think the Necros to be overly overpowered. Yes Flesh Golems look good, but then the team does not have any access to any type of out of the box st5 guy, and there are only two of them.

You get four BOBs plus a big guy - not a comparison to two st4 guys max.

Yes the wolves are good - but compare them to wardancers - in regard to starting skills - one has one less av but more ag than the other. I'd still say the War Dancer is the more powerful out of the box player (wolves come close, but are not quite there).

Don't underestimate the fact that the Necros don't have an apo. A 4+ roll is failed easily, and once one of the wolves is out [or both] the team doesn't have all that much left going for it. If you have problems playing against Necros maintarget their wolves a bit.

Personally I still consider them to be one of the more balanced experimental rosters - and a quite interesting one as well as it promotes a running game instead of a bashing one with undead. Now Khemri and Ogre are just awfully and utterly wrong.

-Mnemon
slackman



Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Post   Posted: Jul 01, 2003 - 22:39 Reply with quote Back to top

i too believe the werewolf shouldnt have av8. i currently have one w/ one skill (dauntless) and one w/ 3 (blodge, dauntless). they simply tear up the opposition. but they dont have regen, nor do necros get access to an apoth. so im sure their reign will be rather short lived. but what i'd like to see, is taking off a point of av, and giving them regen. this means they're getting hurt twice as often, and trust me, regen will not keep them alive indefinitely. i've had games where 6 of 7 regen rolls failed. also changing RSC to claw would reduce the cas rate, and make them more of a scoring player, rather than a blitzer. you can lose the catch skill too if you want, w/ no throwers on the team, whats the point? i never use it...

i dont think there's anything wrong w/ the flesh golem, however. you have to take their hefty price tag in consideration. you can get 3 bobs for the price of two golems, and they are the only above st3 players they can get, and are also the only players w/ access to strength skills. the 4 premire positions to fill are all 120k, having all 4 of them costs you 480k. this doesnt leave much when you have the most expensive rrs, and your only players w/ block cost 90k and dont have access to strength skills. removing regen would be highly unfair, as they are not allowed an apothecary.

all in all, i find the necro roster to be very good, but not necessarily overpowered. it takes the undead team, and weakens their hitting power slightly, while slightly improving their scoring ability. once again, this team does NOT have access to an apoth. this means that all six of the primary scorers (2 werewolves, 4 ghouls) are quite easily removed, as NONE of them have regen.

slackman42
dlb1969



Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Post   Posted: Jul 01, 2003 - 23:38 Reply with quote Back to top

slackman wrote:
i too believe the werewolf shouldnt have av8. i currently have one w/ one skill (dauntless) and one w/ 3 (blodge, dauntless). they simply tear up the opposition. but they dont have regen, nor do necros get access to an apoth. so im sure their reign will be rather short lived. but what i'd like to see, is taking off a point of av, and giving them regen. this means they're getting hurt twice as often, and trust me, regen will not keep them alive indefinitely. i've had games where 6 of 7 regen rolls failed. also changing RSC to claw would reduce the cas rate, and make them more of a scoring player, rather than a blitzer. you can lose the catch skill too if you want, w/ no throwers on the team, whats the point? i never use it...

i dont think there's anything wrong w/ the flesh golem, however. you have to take their hefty price tag in consideration. you can get 3 bobs for the price of two golems, and they are the only above st3 players they can get, and are also the only players w/ access to strength skills. the 4 premire positions to fill are all 120k, having all 4 of them costs you 480k. this doesnt leave much when you have the most expensive rrs, and your only players w/ block cost 90k and dont have access to strength skills. removing regen would be highly unfair, as they are not allowed an apothecary.

all in all, i find the necro roster to be very good, but not necessarily overpowered. it takes the undead team, and weakens their hitting power slightly, while slightly improving their scoring ability. once again, this team does NOT have access to an apoth. this means that all six of the primary scorers (2 werewolves, 4 ghouls) are quite easily removed, as NONE of them have regen.

slackman42


Well, first off the new improved necro team doesn't have 4 ghouls only 2. So that's 2 ghouls and 2 werewolves without regen. I don't care what anybody says I would rather have a majority of my team with regen anyday over a one shot apoth. Yea your regen may fail often sometimes, but that's just bad luck not a norm. We have a original undead team still in our league and I don't think he has lost but maybe a couple of players in two seasons so far. Yea, that's pretty lucky and it is just a sample of the volatile nature of the 50/50 roll. Either way, I'll take that over the one shot 2+ apoth roll anyday of the week. You have to figure that you only have 4 non-regen players on the team. You also have more than 4 ball carriers as the wights can be ball carriers in a pinch. That's 8 potential average ball handlers. I still think the werewolf should have either MV7/AV8 or MV8/AV7, it's only fair. I could even see them giving the wolves regen if they remove RSC and/or catch. I could see the werewolf with this combo as being fair, IMHO at least, 7 3 3 8 frenzy, regen, mighty blow(to show their powerful penetration abilities from their claws). Or they could do the same stat line with frenzy, regen, and then give them the option to take RSC on a doulbes roll as a physical; but only RSC. Adjust price accordingly. I also still don't think that the flesh golems deserve break tackle. I'm okay with all the other skills, traits, etc; except for maybe regen(though I can live with that). This team has a potential to have 8 various range blitzers and deadly ones at that. Werewolves with RSC and frenzy, flesh golems could dodge away with break tackle to do short range blitzing, and wights may not have access to STR skills, but they do start with block and regen and a decent stat line.

I think the Khemri team is okay with all AG2 and less players. I'm still undecided about the ogre team with 0-8 ogres and 0-8 gobbos. Why would anyone ever play a true gobbo team? This team sort of eliminates that team in my opinion. Only the most true BB players would actually play a gobbo team and not this one.

Dave

Ogre team:
4 ogres 480k
8 gobbos 320k
2 RR 140k
6 FF 60k
= 1000000

Why play gobbos?
Gitzbang



Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Post   Posted: Jul 01, 2003 - 23:51 Reply with quote Back to top

Dave, what you are totally missing on the Khemri Team is the fact, that they will not leave anything alive. Four Poing Mummies with some extras to go, cheap and replacable fodder and those Ag 2, Sure hands players pick up ball with a better propability then any Ag 3 nothing player. You can't throw, you can't be creative, but you can pick up a ball and slowy pound the opposition to horrible pieces ...
Mnemon



Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Post   Posted: Jul 01, 2003 - 23:54 Reply with quote Back to top

The problem with the Khemri team is that the only thing you can do effictively with them is kill other things. Nice for Warhammer bad for a game that involves ball handling. If you ever encountered 4 PO/Block/tackle/surefeet mummies you'll see _how_ broken they are.

Why play gobbos? Same reason you do it now - for fun.

Yes Necros have regen - but of 6 important players only 2 have it. As slackman pointed out - those players that make the roster strong and are most likely maintargets can't regen. I seriously consider that there is _no_ way to save them from injuries quite a downturn. Your team will drop a lot in strength if one of them is off, and I am fairly certain that a lot of necro teams will have problems keeping their ghouls and wolves save and healthy - especially in tournaments.
dlb1969



Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Post   Posted: Jul 02, 2003 - 18:44 Reply with quote Back to top

Mnemon wrote:
The problem with the Khemri team is that the only thing you can do effictively with them is kill other things. Nice for Warhammer bad for a game that involves ball handling. If you ever encountered 4 PO/Block/tackle/surefeet mummies you'll see _how_ broken they are.

Why play gobbos? Same reason you do it now - for fun.

Yes Necros have regen - but of 6 important players only 2 have it. As slackman pointed out - those players that make the roster strong and are most likely maintargets can't regen. I seriously consider that there is _no_ way to save them from injuries quite a downturn. Your team will drop a lot in strength if one of them is off, and I am fairly certain that a lot of necro teams will have problems keeping their ghouls and wolves save and healthy - especially in tournaments.


I assume that you mean the ghouls, flesh golems, and werewolves. Why are wights not considered important players. I know they don't get access to strength skills, but they do start with block and regen. They are still useful players that do have access to some decent skills. They can also be ball handlers to help the ghouls and wolves out and they make pretty decent protectors too. I have never understoon why people are so down on wights. If I used your "important players with regen theory" including wights, then that would be 6 with regen and only 4 without. Any team that can field 10 positional players with some to have the potential to have the skills that they start with this team is very good and I think too good. The ghouls with one skill roll could be good blitzers with block and dodge and the wolves are already good blitzer even without block and become monsters with block. I think people have to learn that you can't have it all. If most of your team is going to have regen, and even with all positional player and one zombie on the filed most of your team still does have regen, then you have to accept the fact that those without regen are going to be vulnerable. You have to deal with it and try to protect them as much as possible. I don't know about you, but I think a contingent of blodge ghouls and two wolves with block is pretty intimidating if used correctly. The wights also make good protectors. You could even use the flesh golems, with their overdone skill set, as guards. This team could be devastating with even an average coach and average die rolls.

Khemri team: Well, if having 4 mummies is so overpowered why don't they either adjust the mummies and the rest of the team to compensate or drop the mummies as is to only having 2 and build the rest of the team up with more postional players. Maybe have 2 thro-ras, 4 blitz-ras, and create another positional player similar to the ghouls.
The mummies could always be changed to the following to make them more balanced.
4 4 1 9 stand firm, foul appearance, regen GN, ST
You could get 4 of them and whatever cost would be fair. Then you would have to give the blitz-ras and throw-ras either better AG or more players; maybe increase blitz-ras to 0-4. Whether AG should be increased back to AG3 is up in the air. Play testing would be the only solution. Does anyone know if the BBRC has considered changing the mummies or the rest of the team since everyone I talk to seems to think that the khemri team is still overpowered? What is the big deal with dropping mummies to ST4 and adding a skill or two and then fleshing out the rest of the team to compansate for ST4 mummies.
How does the following adjustment to the Khemri team sound?
0-12 skeletons 5 3 2 7 regen GN 30k
0-2 thro-ra 5 3 3 7 pass, sure hands, regen GN, PS 80k
0-4 blitz-ra 6 3 3 7 block, regen GN, ST 90k
0-4 mummies 4 4 1 9 stand firm, regen, foul appearance GN, ST 100k
With this team you might also be able to add a big guy such as the Ushabti from WHFB.
Ushabti 4 5 1 9 mighty blow, regen, really stupid GN, ST 100k

Just my thoughts,

Dave
dlb1969



Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Post   Posted: Jul 02, 2003 - 18:47 Reply with quote Back to top

Mnemon wrote:
The problem with the Khemri team is that the only thing you can do effictively with them is kill other things. Nice for Warhammer bad for a game that involves ball handling. If you ever encountered 4 PO/Block/tackle/surefeet mummies you'll see _how_ broken they are.

Why play gobbos? Same reason you do it now - for fun.

Yes Necros have regen - but of 6 important players only 2 have it. As slackman pointed out - those players that make the roster strong and are most likely maintargets can't regen. I seriously consider that there is _no_ way to save them from injuries quite a downturn. Your team will drop a lot in strength if one of them is off, and I am fairly certain that a lot of necro teams will have problems keeping their ghouls and wolves save and healthy - especially in tournaments.


That's what I meant by true BB players. They would be the only ones playing a gobbos team over this one. You can still have fun with the ogre team too.
slackman



Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Post   Posted: Jul 02, 2003 - 19:59 Reply with quote Back to top

ok, here's the part that doesnt make sense. wights are 6338 block regen for 90k. so they're a norse lineman w/ +av and regen, for 20k each improvement. or an orc blitzer w/ regen, -av, no access to st skills, yet still more expensive. now how exactly are they better ballhandlers than anyone else?

w/ the new roster only having 2 ghouls, you now have only 4 real scoring threats, instead of 6. your ghouls are also only av7, so they're going to get hurt very easily. and lets make sure we compare apples to apples here. what do orcs get? 4 st4 and a big guy, plus a cheaper blitzer w/ more av sans the regen. how does this compare to 2 st4, 4 players w/ block, although they're not really blitzers as they cant get st skills, and 4 that dont even have a chance to come back after they get squashed.

the flesh golems are fine as they stand. your main beef is they get break tackle. woohoo. they become a very slow elf for one dodge attempt. thats not going to get you through a line of players to get at the ball carrier. and lets not forget they cost 120k. the 4 primary position players on this team are all the most expensive players in the game (sans the rat ogre).

what we have w/ the necro team is a fairly strong tr100, that peaks rather early. i dont see how they would be able to compete in the tr200 range, when they'll be lacking skills other teams can get, and having only 4 very vulnerable scoring threats.

again, my suggestion would be to change the werewolves av to 7, and add regen. possibly also adding claw in exchange for RSC.

im not even going to discuss khemri and ogre teams, they're both horribly wrong. piling on is simply too powerful w/ that many st5 players.

slackman42
ElectricBoogaloo



Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Post   Posted: Jul 16, 2003 - 19:27 Reply with quote Back to top

Piling On needs to be made a Strength Trait anyways. It's the new abused skill. And Witch Elves and Dragon Warriors shouldn't be the ones abusing it. Stand Firm should be moved back to a skill maybe?
Malthor



Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Post   Posted: Jul 16, 2003 - 19:52 Reply with quote Back to top

This discussion should really be taking place at

www.talkbloodbowl.com

FUMBBL won't adjust the rosters away from the GW Official rules (or experimental ones) except maybe for a special division (like what is happening in Stunty).

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