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Mimashi

Joined: Sep 22, 2005

Posted: Sep 23, 2005 - 16:08

JanMattys wrote:

Everybody knows and accepts that DPS are in the game.

Some don't like them, and won't play them willingly. What's wrong with that?

Nothing, really.

The only wrong thing here, is the fact that when someone tries to debate about dirty player and the ways it can be used by a non bloodbath-happy coach suddenly lots of people start fussing and bitching about why one should/should not play against DPs.

As it seems, I've started my forum history here, hitting a very heartfelt theme..

..Woooooowie! Razz

Hammerhiem

Joined: Sep 07, 2004

Posted: Sep 23, 2005 - 16:16

Quote:

More seriously.. the issue here is not if being fouled is enjoyable. The issue is if a DP in your team automatically means that you are a bloodthirsty fouler. Better still, the issue here is how DP can be used as a "normal" skill rather than a broken one.

Mine isn't an issue about fouling being enjoyable either, it's about choise.

It's about choosing games that i have the highest chance of enjoying, that means i avoid people who obviously don't share my philosophy on how BB should be played. That means 2 DP and i probably won't enjoy playing you so why take the chance whne i can play the guy with the Chaos team sporting 4 tenticles and 2 big hands over Claw/RSC and 2 DP...

My choise on how i like to play bloodbowl has no implications on to anyone else, i don't see how it would have it's an open league after all and people can choose who they play against, i couldn't give a monkeys if Wizard turns into a raving loon and gang fouls on every turn so long as he plays someone else.

But i'm glad at least 1 or 2 people got my joke at the end of my post, fouling threads are often bereft of humour.

_________________
Your mind is like a parachute, it only works if it's open.

arghh bumflaps , another fumble. Why can't these Gobbo's just pick the ball up?

Da_Todfatha

Joined: Jul 06, 2004

Posted: Sep 23, 2005 - 17:09

Highly recommended [U]nranked Tourney!!!

Good/committed coaches=good fun!

Good write-ups each round, 160 TR or less to start!

[url]fumbbl.com/FUMBBL.php?page=group&op=view&group=1433[/url]

/threadhighjack

Wink

Gil-Galad

Joined: Dec 11, 2003

Posted: Sep 23, 2005 - 21:53

CircularLogic wrote:

On average you remove more opposing players from the pitch that your own, if you don´t have the eye on you

Sooo.. once per half if your opponent doesn't strike back. Well know what? Your BOB with mighty blow Tackle has more chances to send the ennemy off than getting removed himself. And to a waaay bigger proportion than the DP.

CircularLogic wrote:

and even with the eye you remove as much from the pitch as you lose. Your own player has NO risk of perm dmg, while your opponent has AND you can foul with a dirt cheap not too useful lino and foul his stars.
The combo makes DP overpowered.

Nope, now that's clearly wrong. you need a 8+ to hurt the oppo , which is less than 50%, and that IF the DP isn't used on the armour roll. If you break the armour, that is, of course. and even if it's hurt, your player has about 1/3 chances to get perm injury. If the apo fails, of course.

Wow.

If fully convinced.

( who said i was ironic here? People, don't sell me huh v_v )

nin

Joined: May 27, 2005

Posted: Sep 23, 2005 - 22:39

1/3 of permanent injury, +1/6 of death, also permanet imo, and only one apo, and this is your cheap player, you can also have some with Block +Tackle+MB. It's 15/36 of injury if you don't use DP for the armor (but that's very likely if you are a proficient fouler) so fouling every turn (1/6, 1/2 of explsion) you remove as much from the pitch as you lose, really. CircularLogic's numbers are true.
You can make a team with 6-7 cheap DP, and foul every turn, destroy your oponent's team and have good chances of winning.
From time to time I'll play against such a team, but team rebuild is time consuming.

Gil-Galad

Joined: Dec 11, 2003

Posted: Sep 23, 2005 - 22:48

huh no

1/3 of perm, death included.

As half of the SI are MNG Smile

And for the rest.... if your oppo doesn't play bad, you won't get mroe than +3 on the armour roll, DP not included. if you don't go on AV 7 , ti's still quite possible to be forced to use DP on armour you know...

Honestly, i don't think it's as broken as you think.

Now, if you never play against, you don' t know how to play against, and you might get crippled, that's true.. but is this really the fouler's fault ?

nin

Joined: May 27, 2005

Posted: Sep 23, 2005 - 23:19

ok 1/3 of perm, expulsion is not and your player doesn't miss any match, and I didn't said "never play" Smile

just that if you play the bashed, not the basher, you will need reconstruction, hard, time consuming.
DPs tend to aim at the best players, so your team resents from playing them, recovery when you lose two linos is a matter of money, when you lose an experienced positional is not.
So the problem is that, playing expensive, high TR teams, DP is broken, in regard to team development at least. Winnig or losing is the important thing (having fun is the most important thing) but team development has something to do with this in the long term.

juck101

Joined: Nov 16, 2003

Posted: Sep 24, 2005 - 00:18

CircularLogic wrote:

The math tell you, that DP IS overpowered indeed.

On average you remove more opposing players from the pitch that your own...
The problem is not DP doing so much dmg, but the punishment is too low.

Yep totally agree mate. DP is always in your favour- and aint really a tactical move as it has virtually no draw backs. Even as a one off hit with a handfull of assists it should trash a player of your choice on turn one of a drive. So with no major draw back its just broken at +2.

Dont listen to people that claim its tactics - a high proportion of getting a casulty for one normal skill pick vs any target is sensible rather than tactics. Very rare to see someone tactically foul - ie foul as a stun would help there drive.

I dont mind people fouling as its part of the game, but any player with 2DP+ is intent on fouling nearly every turn. Very little can stop that and I find such a game dull - not that I have ever turned down a fumbbl game.

Been playing with just +1 DP and guess what - it aint over the top anymore. With some extra risk in fouling the vault foul system is very good as it becomes a tactical move for the first time in BB.

Yawn round and round threads on fouling but eye for an eye is part of the rules

Gil-Galad

Joined: Dec 11, 2003

Posted: Sep 24, 2005 - 00:27

juck101 wrote:

I dont mind people fouling as its part of the game, but any player with 2DP+ is intent on fouling nearly every turn.

This is one of the most stupid arguements i've ever seen if i have eevr seen one.

so, a player with two DP intents on fouling every turn ? Man, i know that anticipation is a good thing in blood bowl, but anticipating the intents of every player fielding two DP ( or more ) is just plain stupid.

Two DP in my dark elfe team :] . 4 foul a game or less, except if i have the ref. We're FAR from nearly every turn, huh. Even more, a player with 3 DP, lasts usually 7 turns of foul. If they CAN foul every turn. now, if you let them free and isolate players, you're just a bad player..

If you want to see HOW someone uses two or + DP, just use the replayer.

Man, think a bit next time.

Oh also, by the wayy, when you speak about tactical fouling.

I DO consider that fouling that JU +ST Wardancer Is tactical, even if it's not to score immediatly. Am i supposed to let him win the game by himself ? Or should i try to get him out once and for all ?

CircularLogic

Joined: Aug 22, 2003

Posted: Sep 24, 2005 - 01:10

Gil-Galad:
You need 8+ for a cas (I assume you have enough assists to break armor). That`s 15/36. Ejection might seem 50%, but you can argue the call. That lowers the chance of ejection to 1/2*5/6=5*/12=15/36. So you see: same chances for cas and ejection.

And I didn`t even say, that you have to score a cas - KO removes a player from the pitch, too. And the usual bashy crowd plays only 2 long drives (they kick to you and then hold the ball for 15 turns). So only KO recovery on 4+. I can post the whole math on this, but I know, that if you count KO as 50% cas, then you only need enough assists to reduce AV to 6 - which means 2 assists against AV9, as the fouler also gets an inherent +1 on armor. Even WITH eye it`s an about even trade off of player, just that you just trade your (cheap and unskilled) players into the reserve ejected, while sending your opponents good players into the KO/BH/SI/RIP-box.

Oh.. and I`m not sure, didn`t you refused to play my old orcs for having 3DPs? Or am I mixing stuff up....