pac
Joined: Oct 03, 2005
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 Posted:
Dec 14, 2005 - 20:33 |
 
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| Borgen wrote: | | If an orc blitzer rolls doubles and takes shadowing over dodge or stand firm, or even frenzy or jump up, he's out of his mind. |
I agree but: an Orc Blitzer doesn't need doubles to pick Shadowing: it's a General skill. 
(Also: an Orc Blitzer could never take Jump Up - it's an Agility Trait.)
Re: the subsequent edit. Orcs get FOUR Blitzers (Nuffle knows they hardly need so many). They don't <i>all</i> need to have Guard, MB, Tackle, Pro. There's plenty of room to mix it up a bit. |
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sehou
Joined: Feb 04, 2005
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| Posted:
Dec 14, 2005 - 20:37 |
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True Borgen if the team it's in has low spp Blitzers. But with 3 other developed siblings, a Shadowing+ Tackle Blitzer can be effective vs. average MA teams imo. And being so rare in an orc team, the oddity of Shadowing will have your opponent second guessing. ''Threat is stronger than action'', dixit Nimzovich (chess grandmaster). |
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sk8bcn
Joined: Apr 13, 2004
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| Posted:
Dec 14, 2005 - 21:51 |
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I still believe more in DT than shadowing. First you need to use a high movement player to make it effective (contrary to D.tackle). This high MA player is a positionnal. Usually usefull at other tasks.
Shadowing is a limited skill. Only usefull vs dodgers. so you consider taking it when spps starts to be high.
Now take DT + tackle on a simple linos. a substitute.
You play a basher? keep him on bench
else, put him in: an ag 5 player has a 3+ roll to succeed to dodge and this might make him use a reroll. Do you like to start a transmition or pass when you had to reroll the dodge?
shadowing=>limited
DT=>easier use |
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pac
Joined: Oct 03, 2005
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| Posted:
Dec 15, 2005 - 13:50 |
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sk8bcn:
Naturally you need high MA on a player to make Shadowing worthwhile: on a Black Orc it's a non-starter. However, I don't think the player given it need be a positional: it depends on the team. I would also say that the job of marking the ball-carrier is surely a key role worthy of a positional.
On Skaven and Human Linemen, I would say that Shadowing warrants serious consideration: especially as there are presently relatively few appealing options (after Block) on normal rolls.
The direct comparison of Diving Tackle and Shadowing generally only applies for Elf teams (who have common normal access to both). Most coaches will use valuable doubles on their linemen to get Guard, and perhaps Dauntless: even if you consider Shadowing to be inferior to Diving Tackle, it might be worth considering as a poor substitute for DT if you haven't rolled enough doubles.
Also: Orcs and Humans (at least) get plenty of Blitzers - there is lots of room to mix up their skills. Giving one out of four Blitzers Shadowing (just to experiment with) at some stage in a team's development is not going to seriously hurt its performance (even if the skill did prove entirely useless).
Outside the scope of my original post was the potential psychological effect of Shadowing. A coach who doesn't rate the skill and spots it on your team <i>might</i> be led into thinking that its presence means you don't know what you're doing. (Perhaps they'll even be right! ) Even quite experienced coaches may forget about its presence before making a dodge (the same can happen with Diving Tackle, but I suspect less often) - I have seen this happen with Shadowing in a FUMBBL Cup qualifying game.
Also, it's worth mentioning Shadowing's effectiveness against Break Tackle: players with Break Tackle are often slow (making them easy even for MA 6 to Shadow) and Break Tackle can only be used on one Dodge per turn. In other words, as soon as the Break Tackler has made a dodge which has required the use of his ST value to be successful, he's reduced to dodging on AG for the rest of his move. A Shadowing Lineman has the potential to totally negate the mobility of a BT Bull. A few of them could almost totally disable the play of a Lizard team's BT Sauruses. |
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sk8bcn
Joined: Apr 13, 2004
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| Posted:
Dec 15, 2005 - 14:19 |
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| pac wrote: | sk8bcn:
Naturally you need high MA on a player to make Shadowing worthwhile: on a Black Orc it's a non-starter. However, I don't think the player given it need be a positional: it depends on the team. I would also say that the job of marking the ball-carrier is surely a key role worthy of a positional. |
for sure a GR tackler + shadowing is great. But on an average linos, less.
| Quote: | On Skaven and Human Linemen, I would say that Shadowing warrants serious consideration: especially as there are presently relatively few appealing options (after Block) on normal rolls.
The direct comparison of Diving Tackle and Shadowing generally only applies for Elf teams (who have common normal access to both). Most coaches will use valuable doubles on their linemen to get Guard, and perhaps Dauntless: even if you consider Shadowing to be inferior to Diving Tackle, it might be worth considering as a poor substitute for DT if you haven't rolled enough doubles. |
here I can agree
| Quote: | | Also: Orcs and Humans (at least) get plenty of Blitzers - there is lots of room to mix up their skills. Giving one out of four Blitzers Shadowing (just to experiment with) at some stage in a team's development is not going to seriously hurt its performance (even if the skill did prove entirely useless). |
also true
| Quote: | | Outside the scope of my original post was the potential psychological effect of Shadowing. A coach who doesn't rate the skill and spots it on your team <i>might</i> be led into thinking that its presence means you don't know what you're doing. (Perhaps they'll even be right! ) Even quite experienced coaches may forget about its presence before making a dodge (the same can happen with Diving Tackle, but I suspect less often) - I have seen this happen with Shadowing in a FUMBBL Cup qualifying game. |
well that's the main problem. forgetting DT can have critical effect on the team. But shadowing won't be forgetted twice in a row.
| Quote: | | Also, it's worth mentioning Shadowing's effectiveness against Break Tackle: players with Break Tackle are often slow (making them easy even for MA 6 to Shadow) and Break Tackle can only be used on one Dodge per turn. In other words, as soon as the Break Tackler has made a dodge which has required the use of his ST value to be successful, he's reduced to dodging on AG for the rest of his move. A Shadowing Lineman has the potential to totally negate the mobility of a BT Bull. A few of them could almost totally disable the play of a Lizard team's BT Sauruses. |
that's true. |
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f_alk
Joined: Sep 30, 2005
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| Posted:
Dec 15, 2005 - 14:25 |
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I think what was not mentioned yet is the tremendenous effectiveness of Shadowing against AG5 or more players (especially Elfish, Gutter Runners are too quick usually).
While you really have to put some effort to bring their failure chance to more than 1/6 with "conventional" means (see the first -and very good- post of pac), Shadowing can reduce their chance to get where they want - typically with slightly more than 50% chance of success.
Just imagine you want to go 6 spaces while being shadowed. Even with AG6 your chance to do taht is about 1/3 (that means 2/3 chance for a turnover).
Nice work, pac. |
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HollowOne
Joined: Sep 23, 2004
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| Posted:
Dec 16, 2005 - 12:46 |
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I gave this guy Shadowing on his fourth skill because he already had Block, +MA and Tackle. Unfortunately, he also got -av when getting it 
Personally, I think Shadowing isn't too good because it's one of the skills that's the most rarely significantly useful. I mean, it might cause a turn over once in a while, but most of the time, it probably won't do much good.
The problem is this: Shadowing is best given to high MA players, and best used against low MA & AG players; however, high MA players tend to be fragile and low MA & AG players tend to be tough. In other words, having a Shadower mark someone is generally asking for the Shadower to get his arse kicked.
Which is not to say that it's useless; it's a nice skill to have. But I prefer to go with staples like Tackle, Guard and Mighty Blow first, meaning that Shadow is generally a third- or fourth-tier skill. |
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qk
Joined: Oct 21, 2005
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| Posted:
Dec 16, 2005 - 13:50 |
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Very interesting thread.
I have a MA8 human blitzer that will have a taste of it...
thanks! |
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pac
Joined: Oct 03, 2005
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| Posted:
Dec 16, 2005 - 14:41 |
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| HollowOne wrote: | | In other words, having a Shadower mark someone is generally asking for the Shadower to get his arse kicked. |
You see, I would say that this is not a drawback, but the entire point of the skill. When using a Shadower (or any other type of marker with similar skills) my objective would be to position the player so as to <i>force</i> my opponent to use his Blitz against the Shadower. If I succeed in that, the player has done his job. If the Shadower also has Block and Stand Firm/Sidestep, even this Blitz may not free up the marked player.
Even with Shadowing, you would only man-mark selectively. Putting a Shadower on an opposing player who has no interest in moving or being involved in the broader play but is just looking for someone to block is clearly not worthwhile. |
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HollowOne
Joined: Sep 23, 2004
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| Posted:
Dec 16, 2005 - 15:05 |
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| pac wrote: | | You see, I would say that this is not a drawback, but the entire point of the skill. |
The point of the skill is to make it dangerous or difficult for the opponent to unmark his players; getting thumped is the drawback. Like Diving Tackle, it's good for marking players, but it requires you to put your marker at risk.
The only real problem with Shadowing is that there are a great many better skills to take, generally. I mean, giving a Rat Ogre Tentacles + Shadowing is a nice idea, but that's two doubles -- I could give it Block + Tackle, or Block + Dodge, or Block + Claw or RSC instead, or even Block + Spikes, which are probably better choices in general.
Maybe in Vault, with most skills becoming a little more balanced Tentacles + Shadowing would be a more interesting combo, but with the current ruleset I'd consider choosing Shadowing over a skill like Block, or Tackle, etc. to be an underpowering move. |
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Tinkywinky
Joined: Aug 25, 2003
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| Posted:
Dec 16, 2005 - 16:58 |
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I wouldn't say that blitzers are in plenty for humans, you get four of them and you better pick guard and tackle quickly. I think shadowing is only good as a third or fourth skill for human blitzers or on gutter runners (especially if they have prehensile tail). On human and skaven linemen...they usually don't skill up all that much so you rarely get past the second skill and you usually want kick and a couple of dp:s (unless you are playing ranked). Tackle really isn't a bad skill either, there is usually a shortage of tackle in most non-beardwearing teams. I'd probably prefer pass block or tackle as a second/third skill for a human/skaven lineman. |
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Macavity
Joined: Nov 23, 2004
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| Posted:
Dec 16, 2005 - 17:06 |
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Shadowing a great late skill for Blitzers, but Tackle, Guard, MB, SF, are pretty needed to compete with Bashy folk at higher TR. My best blitzer now has shadowing, and he's that much more annoying, (never had doubles), you really do need to emphasize the Strength on your Blitzers for humans, though. Remember that MA is a big advantage of human teams. A blodge Dauntless Catcher is one double and one regular roll, and can guard your backfield pretty darn well.
http://fumbbl.com/FUMBBL.php?page=player&player_id=1570797 For a look and my champion Blitzer |
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HollowOne
Joined: Sep 23, 2004
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| Posted:
Dec 16, 2005 - 17:13 |
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| Macavity wrote: | | A blodge Dauntless Catcher is one double and one regular roll, and can guard your backfield pretty darn well. |
Yeah, unless you're like me and your dauntless blodge catcher gets killed, apo fail, the very game after he gets it. |
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Macavity
Joined: Nov 23, 2004
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| Posted:
Dec 16, 2005 - 17:30 |
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I am like you. I've had a lot of spectacularily unfair deaths on my humans! I do get tired of the whole, "they can't quite bash, they can't quite throw", partly because it's crap, and partly because their movement is a great feature. At least this thread is bringing that out. |
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CircularLogic
Joined: Aug 22, 2003
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| Posted:
Dec 16, 2005 - 17:38 |
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I had shadowing on 2 blitzers on my human-team. There were some situtations, were it was useful. But I guess the main-reason I took it was the severe lack of doubles and stat-increases on my positionals (safe my thrower). As 3rd skill it`s really nice complementing the team - still not THE stopper one might wish. Usually when you need to stop that special play either you fail your shadowing test or your opponent will make every dodge no matter what - as to watch in the match against quaruks DE. Nailed his star-blitzer down with the ball and he still makes all his dodges through the TZ and all the way to the endzone - without RR available! |
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