JanMattys
Joined: Feb 29, 2004
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 Posted:
Dec 16, 2005 - 17:40 |
 
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I prefer Guard-Tackle-MB on two and Guard-MB-Tackle on the other two.
Humans do need hitting power. I admit shadowing would be the perfect 4th choice for all blitzers once the guard-tackle-mb path is completed.
Sadly, my humans seem to roll doubles or +MA long before the 4th roll, so shadowing has to wait usually.  |
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Arktoris
Joined: Feb 16, 2004
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| Posted:
Dec 16, 2005 - 17:47 |
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I defintely understand why fumbblers downplay shadowing on an orc blitzer. It doesn't fit in as well with the "play-who-you-want" culture. Orcs generally don't get as many games against elves and the like but must be ready for the guard/mb war vs other orcs/dwarves/chaos.
But more importantly, there's no turn time limit. One the greatest advantages shadowing has in the real game is it eats a LOT of your opponents time. Instead of roll a d6, aha I get away....they have to roll d6 to dodge, roll d6 to beat the shadower, if they fail...roll another d6 to dodge, roll ANOTHER d6 to beat the shadower...repeat until successful....one square at a time.
With a few shadowers, this can consume enough valuable time that they can't get done what is needed. 4 minutes, times up  My turn!
Diving tackle is good, but I personally don't like having my player prone at the start of my turn (unless I KO'd/CAS some poor guy)...that severely hampers their effectiveness that turn. But it is nice on a longbeard or Black orc blocker for doubles. |
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JanMattys
Joined: Feb 29, 2004
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| Posted:
Dec 16, 2005 - 17:52 |
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| arktoris wrote: | But more importantly, there's no turn time limit. One the greatest advantages shadowing has in the real game is it eats a LOT of your opponents time. Instead of roll a d6, aha I get away....they have to roll d6 to dodge, roll d6 to beat the shadower, if they fail...roll another d6 to dodge, roll ANOTHER d6 to beat the shadower...repeat until successful....one square at a time.
With a few shadowers, this can consume enough valuable time that they can't get done what is needed. 4 minutes, times up My turn!
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Never thought about this...
It's... evil!
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Arktoris
Joined: Feb 16, 2004
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| Posted:
Dec 16, 2005 - 17:53 |
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hehe, you ain't the only right bastard |
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pac
Joined: Oct 03, 2005
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| Posted:
Dec 16, 2005 - 20:17 |
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| HollowOne wrote: | | pac wrote: | | You see, I would say that this is not a drawback, but the entire point of the skill. |
The point of the skill is to make it dangerous or difficult for the opponent to unmark his players; getting thumped is the drawback. |
That's exactly what I'm getting at: the opponent will 'thump' one (at least) of your players every turn. If you mark a potential receiver (who probably doesn't want to, isn't equipped to, do the thumping himself) you get to <i>control</i> who the opponent thumps with his single blitz. Controlling your opponent's actions is rare opportunity - this is also the point of the Kick skill. Maybe you prefer just to leave potential opposition receivers/ball-carriers unmarked, and give your opponent a completely open choice of who to blitz?
I certainly don't think that this is a skill to be taken as the first skill on your first skilled Human Blitzer: but as a result of my analysis of it it's gone up a bar or two in my personal priority list of skills.
The likes of Guard and Mighty Blow are good on Human Blitzers, of course: but they can only really be used in a limited tactical way. If you're preparing to attempt to match the likes of Orcs in a head-on bashing war, then - for the most part - you're preparing to lose. One of Humans' key strengths is their high MA: and Shadowing is one of the (few) skills that takes advantage of it.
Dice are dice and stats are stats. Circular might say: I tried Shadowing a bit but I failed the rolls at key moments. Someone else might say: I tried Mighty Blow a bit but the +1 never made the difference to AV/INJ rolls. In both cases, we have to say: see what happens over a longer period.
My initial post was massively flawed in that it only analysed Shadowing statistically: not on the basis of an extensive period of play with the skill. Has anyone actually <i>tried</i> Shadowing, in reasonable quantity, over an extended period?
An example for comparison: I seem to remember that someone somewhere on FUMBBL made a team called the UPBS (Universal Pass Blocking Service) on which - surprise, surprise - every player took Pass Block. Silly and highly specialised, of course, but this soon became a team no passers wanted to play. Would a similar, overspecialised, Shadowing team (of Skaven, perhaps) become a team that no MA 6 Elves would agree to play?
[Edit: re: my original Rat Ogre example. Sure, no one would take Shadowing ahead of Block on a double - that's exactly what I said in <i>my own comments</i> on the example. And why the player was titled <i>a terrifying theoretical monster</i>. That one was clearly intended simply as an amusing footnote. The Gutter Runner and Human Blitzer, imho, are worthy of more serious consideration.] |
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HollowOne
Joined: Sep 23, 2004
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| Posted:
Dec 16, 2005 - 20:53 |
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| pac wrote: | | Maybe you prefer just to leave potential opposition receivers/ball-carriers unmarked, and give your opponent a completely open choice of who to blitz? |
You seem to base your logic on the principle that there are going to be ball receivers/carriers open to marking. In this, the major flaw becomes evident: Caging, the major Bashy team strategy, works on the principle that you're not going to get anywhere near the ball carrier.
It's a slow grind up the pitch where the bashy team doesn't mind taking its time as long as it scores on the last turn of the half and gives your team a good kicking.
In this kind of scenario -- and it is very common -- the defending coach has two choices on how to break the Cage: he can either fight it by forcing it to engage his strong points, or to try and get by the Cage directly at the carrier. (Usually a strategy reserved for elven teams with Strip Ball + Leap or high Ag.)
Shadowing isn't going to help you much in this situation because the Orcs aren't going to rely on dodging or passing -- unless they get really desperate. And to make them desperate, you're going to need to threaten their Cage. How much can a group of humans threaten a Cage if they don't have Guards and Mighty Blow?
Criticising Guard for being "of limited tactical use" strikes me as remarkable considering it is one of the pivotal Strength skills. Entire strategies are built around Guard, and it's useful in tactical plays as well. As for Mighty Blow, it may be of limited tactical use, but that's because it's use is supposed to be strategic: it's there to remove opposing players.
Shadowing, on the other hand, may be useful in some tactical situations, but it's strategic use is much more limited. |
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Macavity
Joined: Nov 23, 2004
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| Posted:
Dec 16, 2005 - 20:56 |
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I'm afraid HollowOne is overwhelmingly correct, Pac. |
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HollowOne
Joined: Sep 23, 2004
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| Posted:
Dec 16, 2005 - 21:02 |
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Afraid? :p |
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pac
Joined: Oct 03, 2005
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| Posted:
Dec 16, 2005 - 21:04 |
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| HollowOne wrote: | | pac wrote: | | Maybe you prefer just to leave potential opposition receivers/ball-carriers unmarked, and give your opponent a completely open choice of who to blitz? |
You seem to base your logic on the principle that there are going to be ball receivers/carriers open to marking. In this, the major flaw becomes evident: Caging, the major Bashy team strategy ... |
...
Surprising as this may be to you, I have come across caging once or twice in my coaching career.
Self-evidently, Shadowing is not a priority choice as an anti-caging weapon. Can you explain to me at what point I suggested that it was?
I think that we are both having completely different arguments here ...
Edit: In my opinion, Guard is not a skill of overall strategic use <i>for Human teams</i>. If I can get at the ball before the cage forms: great - but I don't need a whole team of Guards for this. If the opponent makes a mistake and gives me a shot at it: I'll take it! - but I doubt I'll need a horde of Guards here either.
However, if they're caging perfectly, why do what the opponent wants and put players at risk going toe to toe with a stronger, more heavily-armoured team? If running Humans, I wouldn't bother trying to stop a perfectly-formed cage, not in this edition ...
Also: I didn't criticise Mighty Blow. I pointed out that it would be foolish (but quite possible) to dismiss it on the basis of a small statistical sample. |
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Last edited by pac on %b %16, %2005 - %21:%Dec; edited 1 time in total |
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HollowOne
Joined: Sep 23, 2004
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| Posted:
Dec 16, 2005 - 21:10 |
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| pac wrote: | | Self-evidently, Shadowing is not a priority choice as an anti-caging weapon. Can you explain to me at what point I suggested that it was? |
Here goes one bit:
| pac wrote: | | The likes of Guard and Mighty Blow are good on Human Blitzers, of course: but they can only really be used in a limited tactical way. If you're preparing to attempt to match the likes of Orcs in a head-on bashing war, then - for the most part - you're preparing to lose. One of Humans' key strengths is their high MA: and Shadowing is one of the (few) skills that takes advantage of it. |
The above suggests that Guard and Mighty Blow are of limited tactical use and that humans should use Shadowing against Orcs instead. |
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pac
Joined: Oct 03, 2005
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| Posted:
Dec 16, 2005 - 21:14 |
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| HollowOne wrote: | | pac wrote: | | The likes of Guard and Mighty Blow are good on Human Blitzers, of course: but they can only really be used in a limited tactical way. If you're preparing to attempt to match the likes of Orcs in a head-on bashing war, then - for the most part - you're preparing to lose. One of Humans' key strengths is their high MA: and Shadowing is one of the (few) skills that takes advantage of it. |
The above suggests that Guard and Mighty Blow are of limited tactical use and that humans should use Shadowing against Orcs instead. |
I apologise if that was what it suggested to you. That paragraph should perhaps have been divided into two separate points.
What I was trying to say was that if you design your entire Human team around matching real bashers, you're missing opportunities elsewhere, and will never truly match them at bashing anyway. |
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HollowOne
Joined: Sep 23, 2004
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| Posted:
Dec 16, 2005 - 21:19 |
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Fair enough. |
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Macavity
Joined: Nov 23, 2004
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| Posted:
Dec 16, 2005 - 21:23 |
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Pac... You sound like me. A fine tactical mind, but how many human teams have you coached for a long time? Arguing against Jan is.. well... the man has incredible experience. Human speed and skill will tip the scale against bashers, the MB and Guard let you stand up to them when you need to. The MB and Guard against AG teams is.... Funny! Human Blitzers can run far into the opponent's backfield and pound the life out of throwers! |
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pac
Joined: Oct 03, 2005
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| Posted:
Dec 16, 2005 - 22:29 |
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| Macavity wrote: | | Pac... You sound like me. |
Thanks! 
| Quote: | | A fine tactical mind, but how many human teams have you coached for a long time? |
Erm ... about ... one - and not on fumbbl, so I've no proof.
Genuinely, I wouldn't dispute any 'armchair coach' accusation: I'm fairly competent, but on the pitch I find it more fun to play quickly, and so make more mistakes than I would like. That was why I decided to save my opinions for later posts, and stick (almost) exclusively to stats in the initial one.
Guard + Mighty Blow is indeed the best way for Humans to compete directly with bashers (or indeed for anyone to compete directly with bashers): I just don't think that game's worth the candle. Brave Human teams (like Jan's) will take on the bashers at their own game when necessary - and more power to them! Cowardly Human teams (like mine) will see a cage, and decide that running away and fouling a few stragglers looks like more fun.
I know how good back-field harassment can be: I run Wood Elves a lot (should that be 'I run <i>away</i> Wood Elves a lot'? ). I know how good universal Guard can be: I run Dwarves a lot. However, in the case of block-maximisation strategies (with skills like Guard) - which are clearly the way to go in this edition: even for most elf teams! - it's just that I'm an old school coach who finds block-maximisation (and the kind of matches it tends to produce) a bit dull. As such, I'm always on the look-out for effective strategies that make the game more open and more interesting.
I'll argue with anyone - I don't expect anyone to be persuaded by my arguments! Next time you see me, I'll probably be arguing the opposite point of view anyway! |
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Macavity
Joined: Nov 23, 2004
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| Posted:
Dec 16, 2005 - 22:38 |
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See? Just like me. I've often said if you rate ideas on a scale of one to ten, I'll get you a seven in the time it takes to blink, but it'll take me all day to improve it to a 9 or 10. |
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