macike
Joined: Jun 25, 2005
|
 Posted:
Dec 17, 2005 - 18:31 |
 
|
| Voorn wrote: | | 3. Stay away from thier rat ogres. That means they will have to either move them (only a 50% chance of being successfull) or waste a blitz to even get it to you to make a block. That can screw up thier plans elsewhere on the field. |
The only better thing is to knock RO down. There is a chance that it will spend the rest of the drive lying on the ground.
As it was said, do not waste 4 players (ST3 + 3assists) to achieve that - do not put additional players into RO's TZ, use ones that are already there. Use Dauntless player with assist.
Even without successfull dauntless there is 50% (75% with RR) chance to knock down a blockless RO with 1d block. With 2d block of RO choice odds are 25% (44% with RR) while your (equipped with Block) risk of being knocked down is 31% (52% with RR - so do not RR if the original block is acceptable). |
_________________
Hold him, thrill him, kick him, kill him!!! |
|
Macavity
Joined: Nov 23, 2004
|
| Posted:
Dec 17, 2005 - 18:43 |
|
Voorn, you REALLY lost me, m8. Lots of ways to stop those teams without doing your best to kill them? I don't care if I kill them, but I'm going to do my best to fill the CAS box with the most dangerous players. How does that smack of Petty? It smacks of trying to win. If beating down the opposition was not a valid tactic, then we'd only play with Skaven or elves.
FYI, One turners DO NOT run up one side or the other. I played last night (badly) against a team of Skaven with 2 one-turners, they ran through the middle all the time. Even if you have enough tacklers to eliminate the dodge skill, a single 2+ dodge roll, and 3 GFI are acceptable risks in return for a TD and will usually deliver. |
_________________
When I became a man I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up. -C.S. Lewis |
|
vanGorn
Joined: Feb 24, 2004
|
| Posted:
Dec 17, 2005 - 18:44 |
|
These ratfaced kin is very fast.
A too optimistic setup at offense, can become very awful when a blitz is rolled, or something goes wrong before you secure the ball. |
_________________
Gimme a pint of fungus beer!
Then we will climb the ladder.
 |
|
Voorn
Joined: Nov 23, 2005
|
| Posted:
Dec 17, 2005 - 18:48 |
|
When a player has only 3 players left to even field and all the rest of thier tems is stuck in the cas box and it is not even the second half, chances are, you are going to win. No need to try to gang fould those last 3 pitifull ones to death. Especially if you are already up by 8 td. There are limits to how much to try to destroy a players team for future games. |
_________________
Holder of the official Fumbbl titles of
1. EVIL INC 2. Evil Personified 3. Worst Coach
Gaming account self closed due to attempts to hack it and a lack of interest to play.
Immitated in chat by another member "S**n" |
|
pac
Joined: Oct 03, 2005
|
| Posted:
Dec 17, 2005 - 18:50 |
|
| Voorn wrote: | | There are a lot of ways to stop those teams without doing your best to actually kill the players for future games. To me, trying to do that smacks of pettiness. I mean, why not just delete skaven from being an optional team to play because it gives you trouble? The same could be said of dwarves or gores or any of the others. Each team has its strengths and weaknesses. Learn to beat that team. Forcing the player to use a different team does not add to your own skills and only ruins the game for that player. |
I didn't say anything about 'forcing' a coach to choose another team. Again, quite the reverse: <i>if</i> you want to have the fun of running Skaven, you should expect them to be fouled, as it's the best way to beat them. I don't run Skaven (except for my Gutter-less team, that is), but I do run Wood Elves, and expect my opponent to foul my 'dancer at every opportunity. If my opponent had the chance to foul him Turn 16 and didn't take it I'd be very disappointed! The fact that my current Wardancer has survived 13 games without injury (several apo'd deaths though!) means to me that he's led a charmed life! 
I <i>do</i> know how to beat Skaven: you hit them. Sometimes that doesn't work though, and they run rings round you. Furthermore, there <i>is no way</i> to reliably stop a one-turner from scoring on offence - the deep line of 7 Tacklers is okay: but not enough to be reliable, and that's a lot of skill picks.
Both of us seem to have the same objective of making the game more fun for as many coaches as possible. Look at it this way:
• I'm having fun fouling annoying AV 7 rats
• the Skaven coach is having plenty of fun racing his Gutters around and scoring (and if I foul a one-turner to death he can soon make another)
• the next coach the Skaven play will have more fun than he might otherwise, because the one-turner won't be used in that game
See: my way, everyone wins. |
_________________
Join us in building Blood Bowl Sixth Edition.
In other news, the Hittites are back. Join us in #fumbbl.hi |
|
Voorn
Joined: Nov 23, 2005
|
| Posted:
Dec 18, 2005 - 01:56 |
|
See, fouling a player on a team that you have already beaten beyond redemption on turn 16 is simply not good. Furst off, you dont get any spp for it. Then you are simply ruining the game for that player. If the next coach does not know how to beat them in a fair game, then the next coach needs to learn how to beat them without you winning it for them by handing them a team that has 12 of thier 16 players missing the game due to injuries. When you go to these lengths to try to totally destroy a team that you have already beaten beyond any hope of them even coming close to beating you, you are no longer just trying to have a fun game. At that point in time you are doing your best to ruin that team to the point where they will be forced to retire it, cause them to lose any interest in playing that race anymore and just generally ruin thier fun in the game altogether.
There is a difference between playing to win and playing to ruin the fun of others. By saying that you are trying to make it fun for the next coach that player plays against, you are only copping out an excuse for bad behavior. I am sure that if every time you played the game your team walked away with 25% or more of your players dea and half of what is left missing the next game and niggled because of people doing it to you (not saying that this will happen, but it could theoretically be possible and in my case VERY possible), you would be rather upset because it is simply not nessessary. If you have your opponant beat beyond any hope of winning, there is no reason anyone could give (honest anyways) for doing that then simply wanting to destroy something someone has worked hard to build and ruin thier fun in the game.
Now you can play as you wish, but I refuse to do that. If I am winning, I try to be as good a sport as I am when I am losing and do my best to ensure EVERYONE has a good time. You do as you wish. |
_________________
Holder of the official Fumbbl titles of
1. EVIL INC 2. Evil Personified 3. Worst Coach
Gaming account self closed due to attempts to hack it and a lack of interest to play.
Immitated in chat by another member "S**n" |
|
shadow46x2
Joined: Nov 22, 2003
|
| Posted:
Dec 18, 2005 - 02:10 |
|
freppa has the right idea....
foul....religiously....
take out the GR first, he's usually the biggest threat on a skaven team, because most coaches build at least one up to be a one-turner....something about them just begs "please let me have no talent except to make one block and run the sidelines"....(yes i say this even knowing i had one...)
take down the GR that can score easiest on you, foul him, and get him off the field(it's a dirty trick, but hey....i'm a dirty coach sometimes)...after that, the rest of the team is managable....a lot of low armor, with average ag...you'd be surprised how hard it is for some skaven teams to dodge without lots of skills....
a lot of coaches will look at you and chastise you for fouling, gang-fouling, t16 fouling, whatever...but basic fact of the matter is, if that coach is going to go and build up a player that can score a tie in a game with *no* effort at all...then they need to expect that that particular player is going to be targeted and brutalized with prejudice...
additionally, as far as the RO is concerned...keep something in mind...if you can get out of his TZ, then a lot of times the rat is completely negated....if you can knock him down, than even better...that WA trait is ruthless in crippling a rat...you can pretty much bet that if a RO is not in someone's TZ, he's going to be used as the blitz action, so use that to your advantage....it's rare that you see a rat moving around the field without blitzing....such is the way of WA...only go for the knockdown when you don't have to obligate half your team to putting him on his butt....it's not worth the effort against such a fast team...
--j |
_________________
| origami wrote: | | There is no god but Nuffle, and Shadow is his prophet. |
  |
|
Topper
Joined: Aug 03, 2003
|
| Posted:
Dec 18, 2005 - 03:36 |
|
I think ppl here misunderstand each other.
No matter what team you play, you enjoy getting your players killed or crippled.
I know, and so do Vern(I guess) that fouling, crowd pushing etc. is a valid acceptable tactic.
What he frowns at is that some people actually plays to destroy the other team, not to win.
If one has so low self morale as to put that to ones standard that´s his choise - but I can say I think lowly of such a character.
Personally I play hard, and I play to win. But I never play like a moron just interested to cripple the opponents team.
Like when a gang foul is committed because someone is stalling - instead of running down and try and pressure the other player to score....
That´s my 2 cents.... |
|
|
Voorn
Joined: Nov 23, 2005
|
| Posted:
Dec 18, 2005 - 04:30 |
|
Topper, you understand what I am saying completely. |
_________________
Holder of the official Fumbbl titles of
1. EVIL INC 2. Evil Personified 3. Worst Coach
Gaming account self closed due to attempts to hack it and a lack of interest to play.
Immitated in chat by another member "S**n" |
|
shadow46x2
Joined: Nov 22, 2003
|
| Posted:
Dec 18, 2005 - 04:33 |
|
| Topper wrote: | Like when a gang foul is committed because someone is stalling - instead of running down and try and pressure the other player to score....
That´s my 2 cents.... |
Pfft...if there is no conceivable way for me to "run down and try and pressure the other player to score"...damn straight i'll pick a good target, and gangfoul the hell out of them...you'd be surprised how quickly someone will score to save their star "blodge/tackle/SS/washes dishes/brings you a beer" whatever, when you circle him with the entire team, and let your DP kick him in the nuts repeatedly....
it's a valid tactic...if i have no way of getting down there to stop your stalling...i'll make you score another way, by forcing you to act to preserve your players lives...
--j |
|
|
Voorn
Joined: Nov 23, 2005
|
| Posted:
Dec 18, 2005 - 04:39 |
|
The point is, if it is turn 16 and you are already up on your opponant by 3+ td, why should you bother? You get no spp, even if by some miracle they could run from one end of the field, blitz your guy sitting on the goal line with the ball and run all the way back down the field and score in a single turn, they would only get a single td and you would still win. Why do your best to kill each and every single player that they have on thier team at this point in time? You already have enough spp to skill up 4 or more of your players, have won the game why try to ruin thier team unnessessarily in this fashion when there is no possible chance for him to even come NEAR scoring? I can answer this, thiere is none beyond a hatred of that player or a desire to ruin the game for each and every other person who plays in this system then yourself. If this was done to you, your values on this would be a polar opposite then the one given when you are the one doing it. |
_________________
Holder of the official Fumbbl titles of
1. EVIL INC 2. Evil Personified 3. Worst Coach
Gaming account self closed due to attempts to hack it and a lack of interest to play.
Immitated in chat by another member "S**n" |
|
blizzt95
Joined: Apr 12, 2005
|
| Posted:
Dec 18, 2005 - 05:49 |
|
Amazing how this turned from a beating-skaven topic to a is-it-okay-to-foul topic.... didn't even take all that long. |
|
|
Voorn
Joined: Nov 23, 2005
|
| Posted:
Dec 18, 2005 - 05:54 |
|
Fouling IS ok. No one is saying it isnt. The question is at what point do you cross the line from using it as a tool within the context of the game to play a fair and balenced game within the framework of the game as it was intended to using to just be a jerk trying to abuse it to the point of which it was never intended or even concieved of just to try to ruin the game for everyone but yourself? |
_________________
Holder of the official Fumbbl titles of
1. EVIL INC 2. Evil Personified 3. Worst Coach
Gaming account self closed due to attempts to hack it and a lack of interest to play.
Immitated in chat by another member "S**n" |
|
blizzt95
Joined: Apr 12, 2005
|
| Posted:
Dec 18, 2005 - 06:05 |
|
Doesn't really matter. Same related topic.
As a player that does play skaven though, the best way to be able to beat them is to beat them. Down. The av7 hurts. A lot. Even the av8 on three players, maximum, does very little to save the little buggers. I've had people try to foul my gutter runners. Once you have a team with four runners, it's hard to BH/SI/RIP all of them by fouling without losing quite a few players. If you do get the runners off the field, you still have to deal with ma7 guys all around (minus any RO, which I don't use). Sure, they have ag3, but so do humans, and they do okay in picking up, throwing, handing off, and catching.
If you have superior strength and armor, just block and bash. Sometimes the skaven will get lucky on the blocks but unlucky on the armor/injury rolls. Sometimes you can't break av7 to save your life, but you'll get POWs when you need them.
On a skaven team that is actually built to win, the linos may have one or two skills. Some might have none at all. The most important thing to do is hit the gutter runners every single time you can with the best blockers/tacklers you have. If you don't have tackle, then try to get 3 dice on them. Unless a skaven runner gets doubles or stat increase that first roll, 99% of the time, they'll have block. Three dice helps a LOT against runners. Might not seem like it, but it does.
Like Dreadclaw said. Hit them, then hit them again, and then for giggles, hit'em again. Eventually, they'll break.
Offensively, I agree with the idea of a slow march down the field. Only problem with that is with a good defensive skaven coach, they'll find some kind of weakness to blitz that ballcarrier, even with a 2db against and try their hardest to get that ball free.
Just to add a little something here... these are the things that really aggrivate/annoy/worry myself when I play my skaven team...
- Block/Tackle/MB. Ouch.
- Block/Tackle/Claw. Double ouch.
- My linos in several tackle zones. Dodging out is a chance if I really need it, but having to do several dodges with ag3 is risky to say the least.
- Storm Vermin getting knocked down/knocked out repeatedly. Runners are the stars, but SVs are the real (dependable) hitters on a skaven team. Once they are out, it's vicious.
- Keeping all four runners covered. Runners, like elves, are very prone to those aggrivating 1s when they can hurt the worst.
- St4+. With one assist, they can 3db a runner.
- Guard. Since skaven can only get two regular-skill-roll guard (leaving the RO out of it for the moment) players, guard can really change blocking/dodging schemes. |
|
|
MrMojo
Joined: Apr 17, 2004
|
| Posted:
Dec 18, 2005 - 10:47 |
|
My advice is not to play skaven with ogres. I've played ogres with my skaven for 9 times now with a record of 8/1/0. Oh the joy. |
_________________
My post count
Jesus loves me this I know, 'cos my Bible tells me so. |
|
|
|
| |
Vamps win another ma...
Search
