FUMBBL :: Online Blood Bowl League

Joined: Jun 07, 2004

Posted: Feb 04, 2006 - 08:52

Oddly enough, no-ones really talked about why they get rid of nigglers so ruthlessly.

Suppose you hang on to 4 or so nigglers. In the ranked system you're usually matched against sides with the same TR. Suppose you had to play a carbon copy of your team, but one for which the niggles are removed. The niggles aren't included in TR costs, so you find yourself playing a team with exactly the same TR, but a distinct advantage in not having to deal with nigglers not turning up. i.e. you have a more difficult game.

Because of this its a good idea to get rid of nigglers as soon as possible. While you've got them, they'll indirectly handicap you in a matchup against an equivalent team without them.

It's all about making your team as compactly good as it can be and is something people call avoiding TR bloat. In a matchup against other opponents with the same TR you want to make sure you'll have the advantage, even if it only slight.

This applies to things like assistant coaches. 20 coaches will win you every coaching roll, but that's 20TR on your team. An opponent at the same TR might have zero coaches and a blitzer at 75spp's -he's going to get a much bigger advantage out of that.

Having a full squad also affects this too. Not much point having 16 players on your squad if you're not going to use them in most games. That's 5 players worth of TR just sitting on the bench doing nothing. Your opponent might only have 12, but 12 much more skilled players hitting the field every time (of course, some teams, like skaven - really need a full 16!)

Of course, this whole principle is not quite the same once you move into an uncapped tournament where your opponents do not have to be close to the same TR as yourself.

Note: I actually dont pay much attention to TS since it doesn't affect gameplay like TR does with handicaps. I expect alot of these arguments influence the level of your TS though.

Malthor

Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Posted: Feb 04, 2006 - 10:44

What Snorri says is true unless you get to a very high TR, in which case you are going to give away handicaps anyway. Once you are over 100 more than the opponent, it might as well be 200 or 300 more. With such a high TR team, a couple of nigglers is worth keeping if you can't afford to replace them as sacking them won't reduce your handicaps nor affect your money roll.

For example, if you have some legendary Bull Centaur with 700 SPP or an Ork Thrower with 1000 spp, it doesn't matter if the rest of the team have niggles or not if you can't afford to replace them as sacking them will still leave you giving 5 handicaps and still over 300 TR for money rolls.

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Tinkywinky

Joined: Aug 25, 2003

Posted: Feb 04, 2006 - 11:09

Malthor wrote:

An alternate way to look at it is that the system is designed to make it extremely hard to maintain a high CR, and it is deliberately weighted NOT because you are expected to win with a 100TS team vs 190TS team with a CR coach, but to make it a frustrating exercise if your focus is on maintaining a very high CR.

It is just a balance/philosophy thing. It is just a system with its pros and cons, and is not really an accurate reflection of coaching ability nor chance of winning/losing with mismatched teams.

All a high CR tells me is that the person is experienced. Nothing else really, certainly not how good they are or their chance of beating me with even teams and even dice.

CircularLogic wrote:

Imerikol wrote:

Since defeating teams of higher TS means better CR gains, it's a good way to play even lower ranked coaches and still have decent CR gains.

No, No and tripple NO!

The impact TS has on your CR gain is neglectable compared to the CR. When I play against a CR 160-coach the system expects me to win with a TS 100 team against TS 190ish or higher - a matchup even a lobotomized chimpanse would win against me. The diffence between barely legal (40 TS dif) and even match is app. 70% more gain... that`s just not worth it.

Well said Malthor. I'm pretty sure that the system is supposed to work like this:

1. Play a bunch of games
2. See what CR you get

NOT

1. See how a certain matchup might change your CR.
2. Play games that you find give you the best risk-gain value for your CR.

That's why I find it so weird when people that use the second of the two views try to change the system to fit them better. If the current system requires you to win matchups with 100 ts lower than your opponent you ought to ask yourself how you got to your current ranking in the first place.

Smess

Joined: Feb 13, 2004

Posted: Feb 04, 2006 - 11:23

Tinkywinky wrote:

Malthor wrote:

An alternate way to look at it is that the system is designed to make it extremely hard to maintain a high CR, and it is deliberately weighted NOT because you are expected to win with a 100TS team vs 190TS team with a CR coach, but to make it a frustrating exercise if your focus is on maintaining a very high CR.

It is just a balance/philosophy thing. It is just a system with its pros and cons, and is not really an accurate reflection of coaching ability nor chance of winning/losing with mismatched teams.

All a high CR tells me is that the person is experienced. Nothing else really, certainly not how good they are or their chance of beating me with even teams and even dice.

Well said Malthor. I'm pretty sure that the system is supposed to work like this:

1. Play a bunch of games
2. See what CR you get

NOT

1. See how a certain matchup might change your CR.
2. Play games that you find give you the best risk-gain value for your CR.

That's why I find it so weird when people that use the second of the two views try to change the system to fit them better. If the current system requires you to win matchups with 100 ts lower than your opponent you ought to ask yourself how you got to your current ranking in the first place.

While you are absolutely right with agreeing with malthor on this, I find it somewhat paradoxicaly that you give the example of playing 100ts down, as malthor is one of the few coaches who concequently has done this (he has to do it thanks to his extreme teambuilding ways).

Zug

Joined: Jan 17, 2006

Posted: Feb 09, 2006 - 18:59

So what is a good goal for TR vs. TS? Equal, or more realistically TR about 10 more than TS? I have seen and owned teams with a TS higer than TR, but that seems tough to do with many races..

JanMattys

Joined: Feb 29, 2004

Posted: Feb 09, 2006 - 19:23

When TR and TS are within 10 points, it means my humans are in very good shape.

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Macavity

Joined: Nov 23, 2004

Posted: Feb 09, 2006 - 19:24

I think that as long as you won't lose to a lobotomized chimpanzee, you're good. Lobotomized chimpanzee..... that circularlogic guy is hilarious!!!! Smile

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Uber

Joined: Mar 22, 2004

Posted: Feb 09, 2006 - 19:28

My philosophy on niggling relates to how valuable your player is to the overall team value. If you have a 175 spp Dark elf blizter, he's worth 45 points of TR alone and is probably giving your opponent some handicap. If he's niggled on top of that, there's a chance he won't show up on a 1 or even get you a virus. In that case, it's probably a good idea to sack him, since he's also reducing you income by raising your TR. As Malthor said, if you're gonna give the handicaps anyway, hello Blood Falcons, you might as well keep him and take the chance he will play.

Where it comes to lower rated teams, it's not a bad idea to keep a few nigglers to sacrifice on the line of scrimmage, depending how many players total you have. A rookie niggler won't take much TR, so it's likely he won't have a huge effect on your game if he's not playing once in a while. He's also probably not costing you handicap, which means no risk of virus. I think it's important to drop injured players and coaches when it matters. If you've got 151 TR, drop a coach and you'll get an extra 10K in your next game. When you drop into a lower bracket, it's directly translated into cash after your next game. Keep that in mind.

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sk8bcn

Joined: Apr 13, 2004

Posted: Feb 09, 2006 - 19:49

Zug wrote:

So what is a good goal for TR vs. TS? Equal, or more realistically TR about 10 more than TS? I have seen and owned teams with a TS higer than TR, but that seems tough to do with many races..

well hard to tell. undead tend to be higher is str than TR at mid or low range, chaos tend to be lower in str than TR. I think it is not exactely feasible to give you such rules.

For MNG, you can't do anything.

For nigglers, I tend to consider my teams in a bad shape when I have 3+ nigglers. Else I decide depending on the situation:
LOS fodder, soaking a positional spot, retiring him without cash to replace....

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