DrDiscoStu
Joined: Feb 20, 2006
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 Posted:
Mar 07, 2006 - 14:48 |
 
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1) Accurate. Accurate is the first skill a thrower should take, right? I think it is the second. I've always felt that safe throw is a far better skill. Why? Accurate increases the odds of a completed throw by 0.1666 (1/6). And that's good. But most important throws against a coach worth his salt will contain an interception contender. Most intercetpers will catch on a six, so that means safe throw increases the chance of a completed throw by 0.1388. (and those blasted elves intercept on an 0.2776) Add to that the end result of having the ball rest in an empty square or having it in your opponents hands? Safe throw should be taken first.
EDIT: Two great points have been made by LofNazareth.
1) You cannot reroll an intercepted pass.
2) When it comes to teams like Orcs and Khemri Accurate is better because you make quick passes that usually don't have intercepters.
2) Minotaurs. | Quote: | | Minotaurs (if you have one) are one of the best big guys around: the 1 Str from Horns on blitzing is a great asset, and the fact that they can’y move or pass except on a 4+ is no big deal: with AG2 who cares? - FUMBBL |
Okay, I can accept the fact that Minotaurs won't pass that often, but do they move? Hell yes they move. Quite often you need to get your Big Guy into position, and now you can only do it on a 4+. Not to mention the big one: standing up. If you are spending all day on the LoS you are GOING to have to stand your minotaur up and he can only do it on a 4+. (It can also be said that another weakness of Minotaurs is the frenzy minus the ability to get block, but that isn't as big as standing up on a 4+). IMO: Minotaurs are the worst big guys going around.
3) Kroxigor. Kroxigor are of the best big guys, right? Bonehead is a pretty decent negative ability compared to the others, st5 with mv6 and the all important Prehensile Tail makes them pretty decent. Well I would agree. However, there is no reason that a Lizardman team would ever want them. (Yes I realise new coaches like to spend all day blocking big guys but we are talking like your opponent has a clue) Let me be blunt: no one needs seven out of eleven st4 or 5 guys running around with ag1's. It is a liability, not a bonus. You need more than four skinks on the pitch if you are going to score, and mount a decent defence. And once you are in a position that you can afford a Kroxigor, your Sauruii should have a few skills meaning that, really, a Saurus is much more useful. Kroxigors seem good but should not be used on a Lizardman team. |
Last edited by DrDiscoStu on %b %07, %2006 - %16:%Mar; edited 2 times in total |
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Wizard
Joined: Jul 09, 2004
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| Posted:
Mar 07, 2006 - 14:51 |
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1. I always take sure hands for my throwers first... If they dont have it already
2. Dont use big guys - there not worth the TR (unless you just want them for fun factor)
3. Refer to number 2. |
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Last edited by Wizard on %b %07, %2006 - %15:%Mar; edited 1 time in total |
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Kamahl
Joined: Oct 24, 2005
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Mar 07, 2006 - 15:08 |
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Accurate > safe throw; for safe throw to be relevant opponent needs to have player in position to intercept, while accurate is always used and makes passing for a score reasonable affair even for a ag3 team.
Big guy imho is best used when he stands on the LOS instead of my 'real' players with lesser av  Later in the game he can try to put a tz on some nasty player etc.Thats all i expect from him - i will not block with him in usual circumstances, and agains agility teams he will watch from the sideline. Ogre is best all purpose Big Boy, mino is a joke - who wants to blitz with a guy that cant use RR? and wild animal is too much of a liability. Heck, only take root is worse
I would buy kroxy eventually for a lizards team - i dont need to field him on each kickoff, and extra big body can be useful vs bashy teams in tourney for instance.
my 2 cents. |
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pac
Joined: Oct 03, 2005
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Mar 07, 2006 - 15:11 |
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1. Your mathematical analysis overlooks the simple fact that if you make a pass so that it doesn't go over any opponents (something that many coaches are practised at arranging) then you don't need Safe Throw at all. (And Pass Block is a relatively rare skill choice at low TR.) By comparison, Accurate is always useful (for AG 3 Throwers, at least).
I would take Sure Hands first on an AG 3 Thrower who didn't start with it, and Accurate on one that did. Elves have more options, and Safe Throw is certainly one of them. However, my Throwers keep rolling early stat ups so I haven't yet developed a consistent default choice for normal rolls ... 
2. I basically agree, but a WA Big Guy is better than no Big Guy at all, and - when on form - a Frenzied Big Guy can wreak unparalleled havoc on the opposition.
3. You seem to assume that all 6 Saurus will stay on the pitch for the whole game, every game. They won't. Sometimes they will get injured. Even if you don't plan to put all 7 of the big, tough guys on the pitch at the same time, it's still worth having them on your roster.
A general point - if you're quoting all this from the racial strategies in the Help/FAQ, you should be aware that many of those have not been updated in a looong time! |
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gken1
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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Mar 07, 2006 - 15:18 |
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LOS is probably the worst spot for a mino....he's the hammer to punch a hole where u need it. then set it up so opponent can't easily knock him down.....
Krox's on lizzy teams...well worth the money from my experience. skinks leave the pitch too quickly as people tend to hunt them ruthlessly. |
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Istarios
Joined: Oct 09, 2004
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| Posted:
Mar 07, 2006 - 15:22 |
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Kroxigors are great, and an important part of the Lizardmen gameplan. My strategi when playing this team, is to create a 7 man strong wall of Sauri and the Krox, letting the 4 skinks run around behind it to prevent players from dodging through and to gang up if someone should make it past the big guys. From there on you just push forwards, while keeping the wall intact. Sooner or later you'll get a shot at the ball or get the skinks within scoring range. |
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Scamp
Joined: Feb 27, 2006
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Mar 07, 2006 - 15:25 |
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1. I don't like to throw the ball, period. But if you must, you need to cater to your tastes. You won't need to throw it over anyone if your offense does what it should, but then again you won't be throwing it very far either. Personally, I love hail mary pass. Odd how none of my teams have it.
2. Don't forget that you can blitz to reduce the chances that your WA will stay on the ground to 1/6 as opposed to 1/2. Plus you get to hit something.
It's really a matter of preference. If you talk about having horns as a benefit, then you probably have the intention of blitzing with the minotaur A LOT. This means you like smacking things and taking big risks to do so, which also means a minotaur is for you.
Also keep in mind that while the inability to get block is a problem, it doesn't mean that they can't get block. Once they have block, that Frenzy is excellent. So you need a little luck and a lot of headaches to make them great. Think long-term.
3. It really depens on the team you're playing against. I personally don't see how having five skinks instead of four will help when you're defending against, say, a Dwarven team. |
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thesquig
Joined: Apr 11, 2004
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| Posted:
Mar 07, 2006 - 15:25 |
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General accepted strategy isnt always 'accepted' by all. |
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SolomonKane
Joined: Jul 21, 2005
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| Posted:
Mar 07, 2006 - 15:27 |
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Kroxigors are worth it for lizzie teams, as long as they don't become a key part of the blocking scheme - Bonehead is still too unreliable. However, the Prehensile Tail gives lizzies a defensive addition that no other player on the team can grant. Guard and Break Tackle along with the Tail make Kroxigors very much a capable Big Guy who doesn't really have to do much to be effective - if everyone gets away from him on the LOS, you simply move him to tie up a couple players elsewhere, and don't move him again for fear of losing his TZs to Bonehead. The Tail makes it harder for frequent dodgers to escape.
I wonder if anyone's ever tried taking Diving Tackle on a Kroxigor double... |
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Optihut
Joined: Dec 16, 2004
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Mar 07, 2006 - 15:29 |
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I used to take safe throw first as well, but I was coming from elven teams, who throw a quick pass at 2+ anyway. With the ag3 teams I made the mistake of taking safe throw first, but now I'd opt for accurate instead.
Minotaurs are great, because they can take mutations and blitz with ST6.
Kroxigors are a must on a lizard team, your ag1 sauri are the ones who have to do most of the touchdowns anyway (see my U-lizards or Dreadclaw's R-lizards for reference. EDIT: I see Dread has retired his lizards. 14 Saurus Touchdowns, 3 Skink Touchdowns. Here they are: http://fumbbl.com/FUMBBL.php?page=team&op=view&team_id=222330 ) and using skinks for a touchdown is only a last resort when you need to do a 1- or 2-turner. |
Last edited by Optihut on %b %07, %2006 - %15:%Mar; edited 1 time in total |
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DrDiscoStu
Joined: Feb 20, 2006
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Mar 07, 2006 - 15:32 |
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| Quote: | | 1. I always take sure hands for my throwers first... If they dont have it already |
Touche, although I am really debating the merits of accurate vs safe throw.
| Quote: | | . Your mathematical analysis overlooks the simple fact that if you make a pass so that it doesn't go over any opponents (something that many coaches are practised at arranging) then you don't need Safe Throw at all. (And Pass Block is a relatively rare skill choice at low TR.) By comparison, Accurate is always useful (for AG 3 Throwers, at least). |
Yes, like like I said, it is usually fairly obvious when a pass is coming off, at least of planned plays, good coaches should get players into a position. Yes, sometimes you get safe throws off and accurate aids you when Safe Throw wouldn't, but I stand by the fact that having a ball in an empty square is SO much better than in an opponents hands safe throw is still better.
| Quote: | | 2. I basically agree, but a WA Big Guy is better than no Big Guy at all, and - when on form - a Frenzied Big Guy can wreak unparalleled havoc on the opposition. |
Basically agree, well yeah, but I still think Frenzy on a minotaur aint that great, coupled with what I said, yeah...
| Quote: | | 3. You seem to assume that all 6 Saurus will stay on the pitch for the whole game, every game. They won't. Sometimes they will get injured. Even if you don't plan to put all 7 of the big, tough guys on the pitch at the same time, it's still worth having them on your roster. |
Okay you have a slight point here, but I'm assuming that you want to keep to 12 or 13 players, but if you are going all out 16 don't care about TR then you should go for a Kroxy. But when most plays you want 5saur and 6 skinks, sometimes 6saur and 5 skinks, combined with skinks going off the pitch it all boils down the fact that Kroxies are not needed.
| Quote: | | LOS is probably the worst spot for a mino....he's the hammer to punch a hole where u need it. then set it up so opponent can't easily knock him down..... |
Using Blitz with non block non reroll ability Minotaurs is bad tactics.
| Quote: | | Krox's on lizzy teams...well worth the money from my experience. skinks leave the pitch too quickly as people tend to hunt them ruthlessly. |
Errr... you state your disagreement with my argument then proceed to argue for me? Yes, skinks leave the pitch quicky. All the more reason to have MORE skinks on your team. You say that skinks go off the pitch, so what good is an ag1 Kroxy when you have little or no skinks left? Dude... what are you talking about? |
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f_alk
Joined: Sep 30, 2005
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Mar 07, 2006 - 15:34 |
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Shadowing for a Kroxi ... that sounds like an idea |
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Optihut
Joined: Dec 16, 2004
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Mar 07, 2006 - 15:36 |
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| f_alk wrote: | | Shadowing for a Kroxi ... that sounds like an idea |
Diving Tackle would be a better choice for the double as Solomonkane suggested. |
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DrDiscoStu
Joined: Feb 20, 2006
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| Posted:
Mar 07, 2006 - 15:40 |
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| Quote: | | Kroxigors are great, and an important part of the Lizardmen gameplan. My strategi when playing this team, is to create a 7 man strong wall of Sauri and the Krox, letting the 4 skinks run around behind it to prevent players from dodging through and to gang up if someone should make it past the big guys. From there on you just push forwards, while keeping the wall intact. Sooner or later you'll get a shot at the ball or get the skinks within scoring range. |
Agreed that on this specific play, a seventh tough guy can be useful. But most opponents are smart enough to slow you down while blitzing skinks, and once a few go off, you're in trouble.
| Quote: | 2. Don't forget that you can blitz to reduce the chances that your WA will stay on the ground to 1/6 as opposed to 1/2. Plus you get to hit something.
It's really a matter of preference. If you talk about having horns as a benefit, then you probably have the intention of blitzing with the minotaur A LOT. This means you like smacking things and taking big risks to do so, which also means a minotaur is for you.
Also keep in mind that while the inability to get block is a problem, it doesn't mean that they can't get block. Once they have block, that Frenzy is excellent. So you need a little luck and a lot of headaches to make them great. Think long-term. |
Yes but once they have block the problem of Frenzy/no reroll gets solved, yeah great, but the fact still remains that they STAND UP on a 4+. This is a massive disadvantage. Besides the fact that if ever you want to blitz with another player, which WILL happen, especially on defence, you minotaur will sit there useless half the time.
| Quote: | | 3. It really depens on the team you're playing against. I personally don't see how having five skinks instead of four will help when you're defending against, say, a Dwarven team. |
An extra player to pick up the ball, dodge, assist, etc trust me it helps. |
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SideshowBob
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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| Posted:
Mar 07, 2006 - 15:41 |
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The krox is the best big guy around, and he is awsome in a lizard team. I actually try to buy him as soon as possible. Here's why:
The krox highest priority is to tie up multiple opponents. Does the opposite team have nasty tackle/MB blitzer? Well make sure he has to escape from the krox to blitz your weak skinks. Many coaches thinks that the best play vs Lizardmen is to tie up the sauri and blitz the skinks. Well, this might me true, but I like to turn the tables around. If YOU tie up the multiple opponents with your high strength players, your skinks can run around and score as they please.
The krox will also be one of the few on the team that has skills like guard and MB, so be sure to place him in a crowded area and try to get 3 db when you block with him.
And when you one day get a beauty like this, you will never regret you bought a krox in the first place... |
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