DrDiscoStu
Joined: Feb 20, 2006
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 Posted:
Mar 07, 2006 - 15:43 |
 
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| Quote: | | Kroxigors are worth it for lizzie teams, as long as they don't become a key part of the blocking scheme - Bonehead is still too unreliable. However, the Prehensile Tail gives lizzies a defensive addition that no other player on the team can grant. Guard and Break Tackle along with the Tail make Kroxigors very much a capable Big Guy who doesn't really have to do much to be effective - if everyone gets away from him on the LOS, you simply move him to tie up a couple players elsewhere, and don't move him again for fear of losing his TZs to Bonehead. The Tail makes it harder for frequent dodgers to escape. |
See I agree with this except for the fact that a kroxy's tail is a little overrted, with an ag1 no decent player will be WITHIN its tackle zone in teh first place. And all this can be correct but you need to show me why a Kroxy is better than a saurus with block? |
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Curro
Joined: Jun 07, 2005
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| Posted:
Mar 07, 2006 - 15:45 |
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| Quote: |
1) Accurate. Accurate is the first skill a thrower should take, right? I think it is the second. I've always felt that safe throw is a far better skill. Why? Accurate increases the odds of a completed throw by 0.1666 (1/6). And that's good. But most important throws against a coach worth his salt will contain an interception contender. Most intercetpers will catch on a six, so that means safe throw increases the chance of a completed throw by 0.1388. (and those blasted elves intercept on an 0.2776) Add to that the end result of having the ball rest in an empty square or having it in your opponents hands? Safe throw should be taken first.
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First Sure hands. Then Accurate. Then, which you want.
And about the Big guys... There are many theorys about which is the best one. The Regenerating Troll, The Minotaur who didn´t lose tackle zone even failing the Wild Animal Roll, the Ogre and his thick Skull.... Personally, I prefer ogres over the other ones, but actually all are more or less the same... |
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tza
Joined: Aug 25, 2004
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| Posted:
Mar 07, 2006 - 15:47 |
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[quote="DrDiscoStu"]| Quote: |
| Quote: | | Krox's on lizzy teams...well worth the money from my experience. skinks leave the pitch too quickly as people tend to hunt them ruthlessly. |
Errr... you state your disagreement with my argument then proceed to argue for me? Yes, skinks leave the pitch quicky. All the more reason to have MORE skinks on your team. You say that skinks go off the pitch, so what good is an ag1 Kroxy when you have little or no skinks left? Dude... what are you talking about? |
dude..
That Krox means 1 less skink on the field to take a beating.
Use your cage to protect them with, in case you didn't know;)
Krox is a must on a lizzard team. |
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pac
Joined: Oct 03, 2005
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| Posted:
Mar 07, 2006 - 15:55 |
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| DrDiscoStu wrote: | | And all this can be correct but you need to show me why a Kroxy is better than a saurus with block? |
It doesn't have to be better. It's just a different player. And you can only have 6 Saurus. If the option of having a 7th Saurus rather than a Krox existed, then many coaches might take it, but it doesn't.
A Krox has: ST 5 (very difficult for a Saurus to get); Mighty Blow (a relatively rare skill choice for Saurus with Block and Break Tackle as priorities); Prehensile Tail (which a Saurus could never get [without winning the Warpstone Open, of course!]). A Krox only needs one double to get Block itself. The Krox will tend to get Guard (again, a rare choice for a Saurus), which can be very useful even to such a high ST team in certain circumstances.
Do all these things make a Kroxigor <i>better</i> than a Saurus? They don't have to: they simply show that it offers different additional options (which, as the posters in this thread show, some coaches enjoy taking advantage of and others feel are not worth the price). |
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DrDiscoStu
Joined: Feb 20, 2006
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| Posted:
Mar 07, 2006 - 16:05 |
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| Quote: | | Prehensile Tail (which a Saurus could never get [without winning the Warpstone Open, of course!]). A Krox only needs one double to get Block itself. |
Gah, a Saurus "only" needs doubles to get diving tackle, better than prehensile tail!
| Quote: | | The Krox will tend to get Guard (again, a rare choice for a Saurus), which can be very useful even to such a high ST team in certain circumstances. .....Mighty Blow (a relatively rare skill choice for Saurus with Block and Break Tackle as priorities) |
With so many Saurus you can have a few with Guard and a few with Break tackle. Anyway, I see your point about the Krox being different but my point is it is just not worth it. |
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DrDiscoStu
Joined: Feb 20, 2006
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| Posted:
Mar 07, 2006 - 16:08 |
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One of my friends LofNazareth has some brilliant points about Safe Throw vs Accurate, that I will add to the original message. The first is that I am only thinking of fast teams like Humans, Norse, Skaven and Elves, and that Khemri and Orcs make lots of Quick Passes with no intercepters and Accurate is better in those situations, which I agree with.
His point on why Safe Throw is better than Accuate is simple and I should have thought of it: you cannot reroll an intercepted pass. |
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Mnemon
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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| Posted:
Mar 07, 2006 - 16:10 |
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Sure it is. A -1 on dodges without having to put your guy down on the floor for that helps. It can get break tackle, just as the sauri and move as fast.
I value my sauri on the team more then the krox, but there's no reason _not_ to get one if you have the money. As with all big guys the most important fuction of one is to be there and stand around. How to use them at that has been discussed already.
But of course strategies vary. If you prefer to play without one do so - it does work either way.
Edit:
On Accurate/Safethrow:
First skill on any thrower is sure hands on my side ... yes, even ag4 ones, but that is due to my dice really  . Interceptions just happen too seldom ... missthrows do so much more often. Of course safe throw is a useful skill to have eventually - but I'd rather get the ball where I want it more often, then protecting against interceptions that you can avoid or minimize by placement. You can't do anything about the dice - which is where accurate helps some.
Orcs/Khemris (specifically) shouldn't need to pass much.
-Mnemon |
Last edited by Mnemon on %b %07, %2006 - %16:%Mar; edited 1 time in total |
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f_alk
Joined: Sep 30, 2005
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| Posted:
Mar 07, 2006 - 16:14 |
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| Optihut wrote: | | f_alk wrote: | | Shadowing for a Kroxi ... that sounds like an idea |
Diving Tackle would be a better choice for the double as Solomonkane suggested. |
I daisagree:
With diving tackle, you hve a better chance of success for that one tackle. If you don't succeed though, you have thrown your strongest, bashiest, best-tackling player to the gound for nothing. Probably you have also lost a Guard and created a rather big hole.
That does not happen with Shadowing. There the success rate is smaller, but the consequences of a failure are ... 0.
I guess it depends on your type of play, which skill you prefer. |
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Mezir
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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| Posted:
Mar 07, 2006 - 16:15 |
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When I throw a pass over a square with an opposing player in it, then I'm in desperate straits anyway...
With Orcs, Amazons, Norse, passes usually don't happen that much and if they do they're almost invariably short or a method of getting the ball to the cage from your own backfield. Usually it's just a matter of picking up the ball with the Sure Hands guy (I realise that neither Norse nor Amazon Throwers start with Sure Hands).
Skaven Wood Elves and High Elves (or even Humans)? Personally I prefer a running play (pick up ball, toss to catcher/gutter, get him deep and make sure he's safe). Safe Throw? Never useful in this scenario, since I'm passing inside my own half. Granted against Wardancers and other Leaping monstrosities you may wish to hold off the pass until you're going to score and keep the ball in your backfield, however, any coach worth his salt can get off a pass without giving away an interception attempt (if necessary by going via a different player than the scorer and doing a hand-off - more rolls but then the teams using these tactics are usually AG 4 teams anyway, so it's an extra 2+ roll - incidentally the same roll you'd need to make for Safe Throw, and if you fail that one then the ball is in enemy hands, rather than on the ground next to your catcher, and you've already emphatically established which is the preferable case).
I'm currently experimenting with Dark Elves, who are slower, but that just means that I usually try and go for a three-turn running play.
Safe Throw is useful and opens up new alleys for scoring (hey, with a NoS player you can basically do whatever you please) but in my opinion it's the lazy man's way out, and it makes you more vulnerably to failed passes and yes, even interceptions, because "hey, I have Safe Throw anyway" means "Why NOT throw it over Tackle Zones?" - and throwing over TZ with a 1/6 chance of not negating the intercept (1/36 if you're willing to use your re-roll, if you still have it) a lot will mean the ball gets intercepted more than when you never throw over intercepters (ironic, huh?).
In all, by virtue of always being active, and because you don't actually need Safe Throw (let us quantify this as: "I don't"), Accurate is the better choice. Always after Sure Hands, naturally (yes, even on Elves). For me, skills to take on Throwers are Sure Hands, Accurate, Block, Safe Throw, in that order. Strong Arm on doubles, then Nerves of Steel. Dodge is good on Elven Throwers as well. If you have an AG 5, Accurate, Strong Arm Thrower then Safe Throw comes before any other skills, naturally.
One exception exists, and it is Pro Elves. With all those Nerves of Steel guys, having Safe Throw on your thrower is a good defensive strategy. But I'd still never dream of throwing across intercepters on an offensive drive. |
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DrDiscoStu
Joined: Feb 20, 2006
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| Posted:
Mar 07, 2006 - 16:16 |
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f_alk
Joined: Sep 30, 2005
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| Posted:
Mar 07, 2006 - 16:20 |
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If you have Tackle or the opponent doesn't have Dodge...
You are right through. I still don't like to put a Bonehead to the ground. |
Last edited by f_alk on %b %07, %2006 - %16:%Mar; edited 1 time in total |
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Mnemon
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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| Posted:
Mar 07, 2006 - 16:20 |
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Unless your opponent has dodge, fails the first try (dt player goes down) but manages the re-roll. Nice chance to give players a boot too, after that .
-Mnemon |
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pac
Joined: Oct 03, 2005
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| Posted:
Mar 07, 2006 - 16:21 |
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| DrDiscoStu wrote: | | With so many Saurus you can have a few with Guard and a few with Break tackle. Anyway, I see your point about the Krox being different but my point is it is just not worth it. |
I notice that your own Ranked Lizards have suffered a high casualty rate, currently reducing them to 8 players. Looking at their past players, they seem to have suffered from the classic Lizard problems of having over-skilled Skinks and under-skilled Saurus (you say that it's easy to get a few Saurus with Guard, and a few with Break Tackle, but in practice, of the 13 Saurus your team has had, only two have got either).
Along with scoring with Saurus, maintaining a high number of the tough players, and low number of Skinks, on the roster is the key to avoiding this trap. The Kroxigor plays a part in this simply by being another player who the MVP can hit who is not a Skink. |
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DrDiscoStu
Joined: Feb 20, 2006
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| Posted:
Mar 07, 2006 - 16:28 |
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| Quote: | I notice that your own Ranked Lizards have suffered a high casualty rate, currently reducing them to 8 players. Looking at their past players, they seem to have suffered from the classic Lizard problems of having over-skilled Skinks and under-skilled Saurus (you say that it's easy to get a few Saurus with Guard, and a few with Break Tackle, but in practice, of the 13 Saurus your team has had, only two have got either).
Along with scoring with Saurus, maintaining a high number of the tough players, and low number of Skinks, on the roster is the key to avoiding this trap. The Kroxigor plays a part in this simply by being another player who the MVP can hit who is not a Skink. |
Haha ooh getting personal digging the dirt up on me! Just kidding, you are right for the most part, but left out a few things which are really key.
1) My Saurus have actually been pretty well skilled, perhaps not as much as skinks, but still pretty good. I've usually had 4/6 Running around with Block, 2/6 With Guard 1/6 Break Tackle and 1/6ST increase. For a Tr around 160 it is decent.
2) I've always had a Kroxigor. Actually I've had 11 or 12 players the whole time and 6 Saurii 1 Krox, now I am going through a rebuilding phase which is why I am considering ditching my Krox.
So in actual fact I HAVE done what you said and followed your advice and I've been finding I need more skinks on my team and less tough guys.
(and for the record, they weren't always like that, I've lost 3 Saurii in the last 2 games, from pure bad luck) |
Last edited by DrDiscoStu on %b %07, %2006 - %16:%Mar; edited 1 time in total |
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gken1
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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| Posted:
Mar 07, 2006 - 16:30 |
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| DrDiscoStu wrote: | | Quote: | | Krox's on lizzy teams...well worth the money from my experience. skinks leave the pitch too quickly as people tend to hunt them ruthlessly. |
Errr... you state your disagreement with my argument then proceed to argue for me? Yes, skinks leave the pitch quicky. All the more reason to have MORE skinks on your team. You say that skinks go off the pitch, so what good is an ag1 Kroxy when you have little or no skinks left? Dude... what are you talking about? |
uh to protect the skinks? move krox into a couple tz's of st3 players and that's two less players that will be hitting your skinks....
http://fumbbl.com/FUMBBL.php?page=team&op=view&team_id=11488 |
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