wookie
Joined: Oct 02, 2003
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Sep 10, 2006 - 17:30 |
 
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Well if the changes to ogre teams are implemented they become pretty much useless for competitive play. Of course some managers may just find TTM funny and don't mind losing almost all of the games... |
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mighty_scoop
Joined: Sep 22, 2005
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Sep 10, 2006 - 17:42 |
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| Fama wrote: |
Ahh, but don't forget the new PO - it will increase cas, and when the apo doesn't leave the player on the pitch anymore, snowball effect might bring in even more cas. |
True, the new PO will definatly increasy the cas rate ... but, as i said, there is now only one injury roll modification ... mb ... and i would say :
new po <-> loss of rsc = less cas.
with the snowball effect you could be right ... but i expect all in all less cas, so i guess the snowball effect will be reduced to some few games (great luck will tip the scales here)
(additional you now may have 3 apo in some few games ... so with a great portion of luck, 3 cased player will return to the field at the next kick-off) |
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Fama
Joined: Feb 09, 2005
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Sep 10, 2006 - 18:06 |
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Well, not many people played RSC anyway - and when I played RSC, it usually didn't matter that much. Claw > RSC in LRB 4 anyway. |
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deathgerbil
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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Sep 10, 2006 - 18:22 |
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The problem with chaos is they have no starting skills. Yes, you can have some pretty nasty combinations, like claw/mb/po, but of course you would have the mandatory block/wrestle skill too so the player won't die instantly whenever he's blitzed. That would take FOUR skills, 51 spps, which is HUGE. Especially for chaos who have medium armor (av8), mediocre movement, and mediocre agility. Before chaos were just a sub-par team, with mutations as a band-aid patch to keep them somewhat playable. Check the win percentage's on fumbbl and you'll see that for chaos, their win percentage is among the lowest of all the teams, being beaten by even the joke teams a lot of the time.
Now whats the incentive to play chaos teams now that mutations are given out to chaos dwarves? You can say junk like extra arms such allow you to develop any player however you want to, but lets be honest here, - chaos teams start with 0 starting skills, and mediocre movement/agility. Almost all players need the mandatory block/wrestle first, so you could give that player extra arms as a 2nd skill, making the player an elf in one aspect, but sub par in all the others. And with the spps needed to get the next skill level, he'll be an underskilled player too compared to the competition. It essentially makes each chaos player with 31 spps the equivilant of a normal player with 16 spps, 51 to 31, etc. And with other teams getting access to these mutations, they just aren't that special anymore. |
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Optihut
Joined: Dec 16, 2004
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Sep 10, 2006 - 18:32 |
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| deathgerbil wrote: | The problem with chaos is they have no starting skills. Yes, you can have some pretty nasty combinations, like claw/mb/po, but of course you would have the mandatory block/wrestle skill too so the player won't die instantly whenever he's blitzed. That would take FOUR skills, 51 spps, which is HUGE. Especially for chaos who have medium armor (av8), mediocre movement, and mediocre agility. Before chaos were just a sub-par team, with mutations as a band-aid patch to keep them somewhat playable. Check the win percentage's on fumbbl and you'll see that for chaos, their win percentage is among the lowest of all the teams, being beaten by even the joke teams a lot of the time.
Now whats the incentive to play chaos teams now that mutations are given out to chaos dwarves? |
What is the incentive playing Vampires, Ogres, Halflings, Goblins? The old Chaos didn't have any starting skills (except horns) either and thus sucked pretty bad in the beginning, but if you were lucky and rolled a few doubles, you'd get a team that still sucked but could kill pretty much everything. With my orcs, I don't mind playing dwarves, I don't mind playing Khemri, but these RSC+Claw Chaos teams have really been a plague to play against. With the new claw, they are still going to be very efficient against high armour teams, but not a complete game breaker against softer teams. Good change in my book. |
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pac
Joined: Oct 03, 2005
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Sep 10, 2006 - 18:46 |
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I completely agree with deathgerbil on the Chaos question. Doubles access on CDs means that you don't even have to make a Chaos team to make 'ultimate' killer players. In fact, CD Blockers will probably get to MB/Claw/PO much more quickly and easily as they start with Block (and Tackle).
If Chaos were the only team with M access on normal rolls, they might still have a niche. But Rotters have snuck in there too.
@Optihut: The difference between Chaos and Vamps/Stunties/etc is that (we are told) Chaos are not <i>designed</i> to be a weaker team (as those other teams are). More challenging, perhaps; and only meant for a more experienced coach. But not designed to be weak.
I'd add an alternative Lineman position to the Chaos roster. A Chaos Marauder, something like 6 3 3 7 GM 40K. This would (in theory!) be a player cheap enough to be worth taking some of the other (ball-handling) mutations on. I'm not sure how useful it would actually be … But it would be an addition that could be made without breaking the Chaos team tradition of having only skilless starting players and no positionals as such. |
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deathgerbil
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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Sep 10, 2006 - 18:49 |
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ok, against softer teams, chaos are even worse off. A beastman with block/claw/mb costs 31 spps, and he's essentially the same as a 6 spps orc blitzer. with less armor. block/wrestle is necessary most of the time, and claw is 100% worthless in that game, making the only skill it has... mighty blow. For a team that has 0 starting skills, its pretty much neutering them completely. Being behind 1 skill hurts a lot, being behind 2 isn't even a game, thats a massacre. Its basically the same as a str 130 or 140 team playing a brand new team with NO handicaps or "incentives."
http://fumbbl.com/FUMBBL.php?page=stats&op=development shows just how bad it is now being one skill behind. Their win % is about the same as halflings and goblins... in the 100-149 tr category, chaos beat halflings and goblins by 1%. The rest of the time, chaos have never beaten both goblins and halflings in win%. |
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Vanguard
Joined: Nov 01, 2003
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Sep 10, 2006 - 19:13 |
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why you talk about the bashing chaos ?
they are now great ballhandler nearly as good as elfs
think about leap + vll
or ag and strong arm
or 2 head and extra arms
cagebreaking is fun much better than orcs breaking
pick up ball in tz or any funny things all can happen now
less worse inj on the table
al los with thick skull and the dont hit me aura / dont know name
<----- one of the reasons i prefer rotters ^^ |
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pac
Joined: Oct 03, 2005
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Sep 10, 2006 - 19:20 |
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Vanguard, all those things are quite cool and everything, but they all require <b>two</b> skills to do something that elves can do just as well with one (or none). Which takes us back to the 'one [or two] skills behind' thing deathgerbil was talking about.
Thick Skull? Foul Appearance? Guard and Block first, please. And MB and Claw most likely.
Edit: Also, Thick Skull is just a Strength skill in 5.0, so any team can get an all-TS LoS if they really want to. |
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Composer99
Joined: May 18, 2006
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Sep 10, 2006 - 19:52 |
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Speaking from bitter personal experience, I can say that Chaos did NOT in any way get genuinely weakened by the new rules. In the league my buddies and I just finished, one of them was playing Chaos, and after a dozen games, he was dismembering everyone else: Dwarves, Norse, Necromantic - it didn't matter. The lack of Razor Sharp Claw and the overall weakening of many mutations is not as big of a minus as the availability of mutations to everyone (save the Minotaur) on normal skill rolls is a plus. |
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Vanguard
Joined: Nov 01, 2003
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Sep 10, 2006 - 19:58 |
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,los dont need guard and dont need block they will be prone anyway so their job is to bind as many guy and stay fielded therefore thick skull
btw give chaos thick skull and remove it from dwarfs and dwarfs are much fairer now |
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Synn
Joined: Dec 13, 2004
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Sep 10, 2006 - 19:58 |
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I do not see chaos as weaker by any sense and never have honestly.
I think that Chaos Warriors should start with block (always have in fact). Either way the fumbbl stats are skewed since a lot of n00b coaches use chaos and they really have no clue what they are doing.
Chaos will be quite strong in the new edition and the reason has NOTHING to do with mutations.....
__Synn |
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pac
Joined: Oct 03, 2005
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Sep 10, 2006 - 19:59 |
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One example from one local league neither disproves nor proves the point. That Chaos coach may just be the best coach in your area, and would have done the same whatever team he was running. Or he may have had great +stat rolls. Or been lucky. Or … (etc).
Edit: I'm not saying that Chaos would become (or currently are) completely useless. Having S access on every player and being able to blitz at ST 4 with every player is always worth something in the right hands! But I can't see them being especially competitive in the toughest environments. |
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fen
Joined: Sep 10, 2005
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Sep 10, 2006 - 20:23 |
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pac is talking a lot of sense here.
As cool as the mutations on normal access are. They're weaker, a LOT weaker. For the most part anything they all do specialised jobs and are 3rd pick skills. Claw is good, but situational. Extra Arms is nice, but Sure Hands is better for the job you want. Most of the others aren't so hot or you get them on the Nurgle team already. There's not one mutation you'd really want to have before Block, Guard, Mighty Blow, Sure Hands or Tackle...
If you want a decent Claw player, take Chaos Dwarf, if you like Tentacles/Foul Appearance take Nurgle (Extra arms is good in the nurgle side as well - Pestigores score most of the TDs), Big hand and VLL are better for Gutter Runners... etc etc. It's a case of anything Chaos can do, someone else can do better. And in BB being a skilless jack of all trades doesn't get you far.
Chaos aren't terrible, but they're bottom of tier 1 (which puts them above Ogres, Flings, Goblins and Vampires... Whoopie...) and it takes a skilled coach to put in a decent winning record with them. Reported stats are showing that Chaos manage about a 40-45% win rate for the average coach and this win rate decreases as the TV increases. Yes they get worse in comparison to other teams (in LRB5) as time goes on. |
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Jackbedead
Joined: Mar 01, 2004
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Sep 11, 2006 - 01:04 |
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Problems with chaos, here's the problems and the old solutions
Big Hand - this would negate their bad ball handeling. Big hand is now near worthless, you still have to roll a normal pick up to get the ball.
Claw/RSC - Because they were so slow chaos really had to clear some off the opponents players off the pitch to compete. This is now a lot less likely. People have been saying that claw + MB is just as good, but you haver to keep in mind that that's two skills and you still need block. While claw was good enough on it's own. MB is also a bit weaker because you'll now more likely need it to break the amor rather than to add to the casualty table.
Tentacles - an old chaos trick to slow down the opponent. Tentacles took a big back seat as a good muation as it now gives +1 to the player trying to break free. That means that an elf breaks away from a chaos warrior on a 4+ now rather than a 5+.
VLL - Once an amazing skill for a scorer is now second rate.
I see chaos ignoring all the mutations and getting Block, MB, and Guard 9 times out of 10. Withought the usefulness of mutations chaos is now a less flavorful and less competetive team. Chaos used to be a great team because their skills were so different from other teams, and they've lost that uniqueness. |
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