Meech
Joined: Sep 15, 2005
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 Posted:
Dec 01, 2006 - 19:25 |
 
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They are part of the Top 50 right? That was "quick research" like you suggested. Sheesh, your memory is failing on you! |
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koadah
Joined: Mar 30, 2005
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| Posted:
Dec 01, 2006 - 19:42 |
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| SideshowBob wrote: | | Meech wrote: | Top 5 CR Coaches
1 PeteW 199.47 - Clearly Cherry Picker his way through XFL-Dark Elves, Fumbbl Cup and UI. Such a Picker!
2 Smess 192.19 - Won Fumbbl Cup qualifier and did decent in the cup and won a few smacks.
3 Pmg 190.77 - Won 8 Smacks, and done well in majors.
4 Webbe 190.5 - Won 6 smacks, played
5 ChrisB 188.15 Rarely plays ranked any more. Most of his ranked teams have 10 or fewer games.
Out of the top 5 I would say one of the people (ChrisB) could be considered a cherry picker. So what? The argument about seeding and CR is stupid. If a coach has a 190 CR just by cherry picking, and plays a coach of about 155 or so, shouldn't they be on the same playing level? |
So where was the top 5 coaches ever accused for something? |
Evil cherrypickers 
How come no party when you hit No.1 Pete?
Did you promise your wife you would retire when you hit the top? |
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paulhicks
Joined: Jul 19, 2004
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| Posted:
Dec 01, 2006 - 19:51 |
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for what its worth this has been one of the better ideas ive seen about changing cr/ defeating cherrypicking etc. at least sideshowbobs ideas have been reletively well worked through and dont come accross as another "you must all be cherrypickers because im not at the top" thread like ive seen so many of recently.
the thing i like about this idea is that it doesnt really try to limit peoples choice of how to play, just how they can increase their coach rating. if we had to find a solution (to a problem that i still dont see as important) then this idea is at least a viable one.
i personaly couldn't give a hairy babbons bollock whether people at the top have "cherrypicked" their way there or not anymore than i care if people build uber elf teams by refusing to play anyone other than their atheritic grandmothers bridge club.
my only real criticism of this would be to respond that maybe i want to be cherrypicked by higher ranking coaches. hell when you play like me you accept any damn game you can get.
my actual experience of higher ranking coaches has been the same as my experience of middle and lower; theyve all generaly been cool people who have kicked my ass no matter what their level.
as for the term cherrypicking i still have difficulty with this one. i think there are more than 2 definitions and it really does vary from person to person. ive known coaches who think its cherrypicking to even offer elves/ zons a game with a dwarf team and ive known coaches who think that elves who refuse to ever play dwarfs are the cherrypickers. generaly the definition is based on people who are looking to give themselves an easier time in someway. is this actualy such a crime when you think about it?
the only way i can see to avoid ever being called a picker by anyone is to play every race, one after the other, only playing vrs teams/ coaches of exactly the same level (and preferably with exactly the same skills). sounds a bit dull to me. id rather risk someone calling me names.
if ranked (or open as i prefer) ONE of the aims is to increase your ranking and people are always going to do everything withing the rules to achieve this (if that is what they care about). |
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pac
Joined: Oct 03, 2005
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Dec 01, 2006 - 20:34 |
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Okay, this turned into a real thread, right …
It's like this: Ranked is not a suitable environment in which to have a (serious) CR. This is because most of the coaches in the division are not playing for CR, but to improve their team (or to experiment, or whatever). Start a poll, if you like, asking: 'What is your main goal when playing a Ranked game?' Improving my CR will fall a way down the list.
But along with this, there are <i>some</i> coaches for whom gaining CR is the sole priority. They can take advantage of coaches who aren't so bothered.
Now, for coaches for whom CR is not a big deal, this is no problem - if you don't care about CR, you don't care about those who are exploiting the system to gain it. But for those who take CR seriously, it's a major problem: those who aren't interested in CR are devaluing the entire system.
The truth of the situation is this: no minor tweaks to the system are going to change anything. If you want a CR that can be respected (for every coach's rating), you need a new division, focused on CR, with appropriate rules. Ranked is not that, and will not be that. |
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MadTias
Joined: Jun 19, 2004
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| Posted:
Dec 01, 2006 - 20:44 |
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| SideshowBob wrote: |
2. Coaches that tries to boost their CR by only playing noobs.
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Ooooh, so THAT's how you do it. I just KNEW I was going about this all wrong.  |
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SideshowBob
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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| Posted:
Dec 01, 2006 - 20:54 |
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| pac wrote: | Okay, this turned into a real thread, right …
It's like this: Ranked is not a suitable environment in which to have a (serious) CR. This is because most of the coaches in the division are not playing for CR, but to improve their team (or to experiment, or whatever). Start a poll, if you like, asking: 'What is your main goal when playing a Ranked game?' Improving my CR will fall a way down the list.
But along with this, there are <i>some</i> coaches for whom gaining CR is the sole priority. They can take advantage of coaches who aren't so bothered.
Now, for coaches for whom CR is not a big deal, this is no problem - if you don't care about CR, you don't care about those who are exploiting the system to gain it. But for those who take CR seriously, it's a major problem: those who aren't interested in CR are devaluing the entire system.
The truth of the situation is this: no minor tweaks to the system are going to change anything. If you want a CR that can be respected (for every coach's rating), you need a new division, focused on CR, with appropriate rules. Ranked is not that, and will not be that. |
Nice one. Agree on pretty much everything there. I don't think that regular games in R should count in the ranking either. Since you shouldn't measure games that people select themselves. |
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Zingr
Joined: Mar 14, 2004
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| Posted:
Dec 01, 2006 - 21:06 |
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| MadTias wrote: | | SideshowBob wrote: |
2. Coaches that tries to boost their CR by only playing noobs.
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Ooooh, so THAT's how you do it. I just KNEW I was going about this all wrong. |
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TheFallenAngel
Joined: Nov 22, 2006
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Dec 03, 2006 - 05:37 |
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For me its all about building the team.
My CR doesnt bother me what so ever.
Personally id rather try to keep a 9 man team alive and build them back up than just give up on them because i will inevitablly lose at least 2-4 games getting them back to 11 men.
Its all about the luck of the game !
Ive beaten 170 + CR coaches
Then been trampled by 140 CR coaches
So again
Its all about the teams for me |
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tautology
Joined: Jan 30, 2004
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| Posted:
Dec 03, 2006 - 06:53 |
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| Quote: |
But along with this, there are some coaches for whom gaining CR is the sole priority. They can take advantage of coaches who aren't so bothered
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That's all you really need to know about CR, in my opinion.
Well put, pac! |
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tautology
Joined: Jan 30, 2004
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| Posted:
Dec 03, 2006 - 06:55 |
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| Quote: |
The truth of the situation is this: no minor tweaks to the system are going to change anything. If you want a CR that can be respected (for every coach's rating), you need a new division, focused on CR, with appropriate rules. Ranked is not that, and will not be that.
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Also very true. With a few tweaks, faction could become such a division. And would be equally unsuccessful |
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Synn
Joined: Dec 13, 2004
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Dec 03, 2006 - 07:21 |
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CR tends to fix itself. PeteW has earned his CR through some big tourney wins (seriously..... can anyone point out a flaw in how he got up there!). After this tourney cycle is done with.... PeteW will get a lot of competition and lose some games and drop a lot of CR in a short time.
Guess what....... i am pretty sure Pete doesn't care one way or another! Same thing goes for a high number of high CR coaches i know.
CR as it stands now punishes the artifically high over a loss. I don't see it as important as i know who around here are top 10%ers (guess which 2 on the top 5 are not!).
CR only matters if you let it. See you on the field!
__Synn
**My CR will hit 160s real soon |
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sk8bcn
Joined: Apr 13, 2004
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| Posted:
Dec 05, 2006 - 12:22 |
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| koadah wrote: | Coaches are told "go play some good coaches to improve our skill".
This rule takes away any incentive there is for a high CR coach to slum it with the rest of us.
(Except maybe in [A]cademy)
Coaches with very low CR could wait ages for a game. |
I thought most of R players don't play for CR  |
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Melmoth
Joined: May 05, 2004
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| Posted:
Dec 05, 2006 - 12:44 |
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I think regular ranked games should not affect CR. CR should only be gained in Cups. If you dont have the time to play Cups you dont have CR thats all. So people can choose if they want to play competitive or just for fun but forced CR AND the possibilty to only play weak coaches or weak Teams to improve CR makes a joke out of it IMO. Not that I want to blame the ranked(open) playing system thats a good thing. |
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sk8bcn
Joined: Apr 13, 2004
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Dec 05, 2006 - 13:14 |
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well my opinions:
1-I do not like CR beeing affected that much by tournaments. I am currently ranked 13th! I am FAR AWAY from beeing one of the 20 best coaches around. How did I get that one? One RRR won in final vs Mezir. Currently in finals in an XLF (after beting Frankenstein in an uneven matchup in semi. -btw I got fouled turn 15 and 16 what surprised me since there was some reports of Frankenstein beeing a cool mate-).
Well you have lot to win and lot to loose, I agree either on that point. However, I d perfer to have a medal/crown/cup, whatever, what would be more rewarding than it.
How to be ranked high?
Try RRR or smack. wait to win one. Cherrypick for slightely ups.
2-If you are patient enough (and good enough cause even if it is not really a great way to win CR, you still need to be good), you can go for a cherrypicking route. Soaren has proven it well. So who can really say that the basic system isn't flawed?
3-no reward vs lower coach but loss possible cannot work for everyone wanting to play CR. It would freeze many teams or coaches. I wouldn't like to play a possible challenge where all I can have is a loss. However, making it a pure ladder style could be a solution.
4-I thought that: CR formula is an ELO improved. I looked at ELO and ELO is way better in his concepts than CR. first cr flaw: starting at 150? how can you rate a noob at CR 150 (average level). ok that may be an tabletop expert, but maybe not. That's why ELO rates a newcommer with a probatory score during 20 games and affect a real one after that period.
5-str formula not adjusted to recovery games: Unless the guide is uncomplete you don't get a str reduction if you have fewer players than 11. Btw str formula not perfect at all, thought not bad neither and generaly good.
6-handicaps weighted at 5 str: sucks. Palmed Coin vs I am the greatest. Both 5str points. Guess which one of the two I would take if I could?
some other points to note but they do not spring in my mind right now |
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Xenon
Joined: Mar 15, 2006
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| Posted:
Dec 05, 2006 - 14:37 |
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| SideshowBob wrote: | | Mr_Launcher wrote: | | SideshowBob wrote: | | And it would have an impact, since some of the top 30 coaches would have to change their CR hunting strategy and actually need to win games where they have some opposition. |
It follows mathematically from the current CR formula that the only way the top CR coaches (or anyone else, for that matter) can increase their CR in the long run is by becoming a better coach. Playing lowly rated coaches will not increase their CR in the long run because the few times they lose, their CR will drop enough to cancel out the many small CR increases they get when they win. |
Edit: Maybe you should do a quick research in the top 50 list then... |
I think the research only covered the top 5... not 50 as you said above, but certainly this was the point they were trying to address for you... |
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