runreallyfast
Joined: Sep 08, 2006
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 Posted:
Dec 14, 2006 - 14:40 |
 
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When I first looked at the necromantic team list on FUMBBL, I was stunned, because I thought that it was an upgrade on what I had always considered the best race from 3rd Ed - the Undead.
Having had a chance to actually play them, I no longer think that's true, and I'm sure that nearly every experienced coach here would agree with this. Necromantic teams do much worse than undead teams, not just at the beginning (which I did expect, given the player costs) but at every TR. I myself played 15 games with both my undead team (10-4-1) and my necromantic team (6-2-7) in my effort to establish to myself that the stats on FUMBBL may mislead, but they don't lie.
My question, obviously, is why?
The rosters are nearly identical. The RR cost is the same. Mummies look better than flesh golems, but werewolves look better than ghouls. So why the (really rather large) lag in performance for the necro boys?
After some thought, I came up with these as the main reasons why I think Undead are better:
1) Werewolves are not as much better than ghouls as I first thought. Sure, frenzy, claw, armor, and extra move is nice, and I'm a fan of catch. But dodge is an amazing skill, and ghouls with 6 SPP and block are already very valuable to their team...a werewolf with 6 SPP and block is nice, but not really much better. And, since there's a strong tendency for neither position to live all that long...
2) Flesh golems are MUCH worse than mummies. The point of strength is bad; but not starting with Mighty Blow is horrible. Essentially, I feel the 4 and 5 STR positionals need three skills to be at a sort of optimum contribution - Block, Mighty Blow, and Guard. More skills are nice, but after those three I am not sure I have a strong preference. Mummies skill up quite nicely with a string of casualties from the beginning. Flesh golems...well...it's a work in progress. My first thought was that, heck, they've got Stand Firm and Thick Skull, those are both decent traits, but
really it doesn't do it.
3) Minor differences in player cost efficiency make much more of a difference than I would have guessed.
4) I - and presumably other players - tend to play more to TS than I would have guessed...and the formula on FUMBBL badly overestimates (IMO) the usefulness of both zombies and flesh golems. Really, a new flesh golem is only very marginally better than a black orc (and I think new black orcs are not worth what they say, either). To be sure, an undead team will have zombies as well, but it probably won't have as many of them. Also, I think the formula badly underestimates how good mummies are.
5) It's easier and more natural to spread the SPPs around on an undead team, so when a casualty to a good player is taken, it's not as devastating. It's hard to use non-werewolves for blitzing, even though you probably should from a SPP standpoint. The werewolves are also the best at scoring...
So those are my thoughts. Is there something I'm missing? Has anyone had so much success with necromantic teams that they feel that I'm just wrong? |
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Kaiowas
Joined: Apr 15, 2006
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Dec 14, 2006 - 14:58 |
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i agree, although its great fun startin with 2x claw.... my necro team have had some wonderful wolves after only 14 games but the skills elsewhere are abysmal. FGs are so hard to level and such a target for gang blocks. At AG3 the wights are hard to skill and defense with necros is tough once your line is broken, speed is the major problem here. The only saving grace for me is my 8 4 4 8 blck dodge catch frenzy mighty blow wolf and that was a bit lucky |
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Mully
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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Dec 14, 2006 - 15:05 |
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I think you are partially wrong. Necro are great at low TRs. They start with 2 dodgers, 2 catchers (wolves), and 2 devastaing blitzers, (also wolves). They have cheap lineman and 2 STR4 players. I think under TR150 they can hang with anybody.
However, I agree that at arounf TR175 they become underpowered. By then other teams have gotten block, MB, and other good skills. Opposing lineman become so much better than skilled up zombies that if they can manage to take out any wolves or ghouls your team becomes very weak. |
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torsoboy
Joined: Nov 23, 2004
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| Posted:
Dec 14, 2006 - 15:07 |
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The difference are the key players. The key players on UD teams are Mummies, which are expensive but can regenerate. The key players on Necro teams are Werewolves, which are expensive, cannot regenerate, and have no apothecary to save them. |
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lethiel
Joined: Dec 05, 2004
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Dec 14, 2006 - 15:08 |
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I dont know what this is all about. Teams are simply not supposed to be equally strong. The reason why you get the option of playing a not-that-good team is that you have either found a "trick" or some tactik you want to try out, or you think it would simply be fun. Why otherwise play halflings or goblins etc? With the necroes you get the option of the warewolves combined with some of the undead benefits. Thats it. - noone is even forceing you to use these rules. |
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StarBreeze
Joined: May 17, 2005
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Dec 14, 2006 - 15:16 |
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Mummies. That makes the difference. |
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Kami
Joined: May 15, 2006
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Dec 14, 2006 - 15:19 |
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| lethiel wrote: | | I dont know what this is all about. Teams are simply not supposed to be equally strong. The reason why you get the option of playing a not-that-good team is that you have either found a "trick" or some tactik you want to try out, or you think it would simply be fun. Why otherwise play halflings or goblins etc? With the necroes you get the option of the warewolves combined with some of the undead benefits. Thats it. - noone is even forceing you to use these rules. |
I think your missing the point. We're discussing about why they're a little underpowered. What are the technical points that makes them less efficient. We're not contesting the design of the game.
I think it mainly depend on your opponents. Mighty Blow is so great against orcs. But Claws just rip appart Zons, Norses, Thralls... AV 7. Of course it ain't the case anymore with LRB 5 Rules, but then those Werewolf regen. Wight With Strength. Flesh Gloem a bit cheaper... Now it's a team. |
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runreallyfast
Joined: Sep 08, 2006
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| Posted:
Dec 14, 2006 - 15:27 |
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Kami wrote
| Quote: |
We're discussing about why they're a little underpowered. What are the technical points that makes them less efficient. We're not contesting the design of the game.
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Yes, exactly.
I certainly don't care that they are not as good as undead. I'm just trying to put my finger on why they're not. Necromantic teams are more fun, for me, than undead teams, because they're more challenging.
I just thought they'd be better than they are. |
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torsoboy
Joined: Nov 23, 2004
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Dec 14, 2006 - 15:30 |
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| Kami wrote: |
I think it mainly depend on your opponents. Mighty Blow is so great against orcs. But Claws just rip appart Zons, Norses, Thralls... AV 7. |
Actually, MB is better vs lower AV players (whose armor you're likely to break anyway), and Claw is better vs higher AV players (there's not injury bonus if you can't break through their armor and Claw is better at the latter). |
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The plural of anecdote isn't data. |
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Kami
Joined: May 15, 2006
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Dec 14, 2006 - 15:37 |
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Your probably right.I did not make the Math. But I feel the opposite.
But I'm very at ease playing Necros and at least stunning every guy my Weries block. |
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Meech
Joined: Sep 15, 2005
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Dec 14, 2006 - 16:04 |
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I have played a few games with Necro.
In my experience, my necro team performs better against bashier teams. The teams with easy blodge access are far more difficult to handle. Part of the reason is the wolves skill progression. They generally don't get tackle until 31 spp at the earliest and usually 51 spp (block, dodge, sidestep are the choices I prefer... if I even get a wolf to 31 spp).
Wights are generally workhorses for the team, either carrying the ball when the ghouls and wolves are gone or blitzing when... the wolves and ghouls are gone. Scoring with FG is actually easier than scoring with Black Orcs or mummies (duh). Black Orcs have the advantage of playing on a team that has an easier access to guard (and a big guy) and Mummies start with mighty blow.
It's funny, when i first looked at Necro I thought "Wow, this team is overpowered" when in fact they do lots of little things, ok and nothing really well (other than die, werewolves die like no other player) |
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Optihut
Joined: Dec 16, 2004
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Dec 14, 2006 - 16:11 |
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| lethiel wrote: | | I dont know what this is all about. Teams are simply not supposed to be equally strong. The reason why you get the option of playing a not-that-good team is that you have either found a "trick" or some tactik you want to try out, or you think it would simply be fun. Why otherwise play halflings or goblins etc? With the necroes you get the option of the warewolves combined with some of the undead benefits. Thats it. - noone is even forceing you to use these rules. |
As a sidenote, with the TS matching in place, halflings are not as bad as they appear. Stealing rerolls and having enough cheap players to foul the opposing team into the ground is quite effective.
As for undead vs necros: Using mummies is a no brainer, whereas the wolves are a bit tricky, as you need to run them to safety after a blitz. |
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kwèk
Joined: Nov 13, 2005
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Dec 14, 2006 - 16:44 |
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I follow torsoboy on this one
Having 2 mummies instead of flesh gollems is a huge advantage.
Okay, werewolves are cool, but the natural +6 on the inj roll (the legendary unstated and forbidden rule that actually is true) makes wolves go off the field quick. Without regen they are sitting ducks.
No MB to start with gives the necros a huge disadvantage on the undead teams. MB rocks (what ever you people think, MB really rocks) and if you want prove, i can just let you take a look at the question in the toppic. MB is the answer.
Also those blasted mummies have ST 5, yeah baby, wooohooo. Okay, they lack thick skull and stand firm wich are all great skills, but because of MB they will gain SPP quicker, giving them block earlier, making them even more dreadfull.
Also a big problem with the necromantic team is that lots of players play them in a wrong way, buying too much postionals instead of rerolls. Having no block skill, low ag, and nothing special to support scoring they need rerolls more then a full team of ghouls/wights/wolves/gollems.
Dont forget all those players are pretty expensive, Undeads are pretty much cheaper because they replace 2 wolf slots into 2 ghoul slots... meaning 50k less spending value. |
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It is a bit embarrassing to have been concerned with the human problem all one's life and find at the end that one has no more to offer by way of advice than 'try to be a little kinder'.
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Meech
Joined: Sep 15, 2005
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Dec 14, 2006 - 17:02 |
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| kwèk wrote: | I follow torsoboy on this one
Having 2 mummies instead of flesh gollems is a huge advantage.
Okay, werewolves are cool, but the natural +6 on the inj roll (the legendary unstated and forbidden rule that actually is true) makes wolves go off the field quick. Without regen they are sitting ducks.
No MB to start with gives the necros a huge disadvantage on the undead teams. MB rocks (what ever you people think, MB really rocks) and if you want prove, i can just let you take a look at the question in the toppic. MB is the answer.
Also those blasted mummies have ST 5, yeah baby, wooohooo. Okay, they lack thick skull and stand firm wich are all great skills, but because of MB they will gain SPP quicker, giving them block earlier, making them even more dreadfull.
Also a big problem with the necromantic team is that lots of players play them in a wrong way, buying too much postionals instead of rerolls. Having no block skill, low ag, and nothing special to support scoring they need rerolls more then a full team of ghouls/wights/wolves/gollems.
Dont forget all those players are pretty expensive, Undeads are pretty much cheaper because they replace 2 wolf slots into 2 ghoul slots... meaning 50k less spending value. |
Have you even played necro?  |
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Putting the FU in fumbbl since 9/2005 |
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kwèk
Joined: Nov 13, 2005
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Dec 14, 2006 - 17:10 |
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i'm a total noob at those things 
my first team was a faery team, and i have been a sissy ever since
people even put me on blacklist because my faeries die more then there mummies... and they became annoyed by winning all the time against me, and beating my team to pulp with it.
They are frustrated because they feel guilty hurting me all the time. |
_________________
It is a bit embarrassing to have been concerned with the human problem all one's life and find at the end that one has no more to offer by way of advice than 'try to be a little kinder'.
~Aldous Huxley~ |
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