FUMBBL :: Online Blood Bowl League

Joined: Oct 26, 2003

Posted: Dec 20, 2006 - 19:02

PO is one of the big mistakes in LRB 5.
i told them that is a big problem with PO, when they were testing the rules in TBB, but they stay blind in seeing that mistake

fen

Joined: Sep 10, 2005

Posted: Dec 20, 2006 - 20:23

Flix wrote:

PO is one of the big mistakes in LRB 5.
i told them that is a big problem with PO, when they were testing the rules in TBB, but they stay blind in seeing that mistake

I remember that thread.

I don't think you stated your case anywhere near strongly enough before I accidently derailed it.
Key post to pay attention to are as always Galak's. Which you didn't attempt to address, so there was no chance a change was going to happen.

Secondly, so far no Tabletop has managed to report a serious breaking of their league by piling on, yet*. This may be because people are refusing to take PO, it may be because the counter measures (fouling, wrestle, fend) work. I don't know.

But until several LRB5 leagues (or FUMBBL) reports back that PO is too bloody (and remember, the intention is for increased on pitch death through blocks in LRB5) there's nothing that can be done to change this.

GalakStarscraper wrote:

Can I now officially laugh at all the folks who 2 years ago said I was making a game where no one got hurt. Laughing

(ie because I changed Claw and deleted RSC)

I predict it won't get looked at before 2009.

*Note: I have said yet. I am not confirming or denying if Piling On is too good or not.

SnakeSanders

Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Posted: Dec 20, 2006 - 20:37

OK, Ive made a Dwarf team in MBBL, and everyone is getting Mighty Blow and Piling On... playing these skaven and its going nicely so far Wink

Ill report back soon

pac

Joined: Oct 03, 2005

Posted: Dec 21, 2006 - 03:50

fen wrote:

I don't think you stated your case anywhere near strongly enough before I accidently derailed it.

I'd like to note that I did my share of derailing there too, thank you!

Clearly, it is a very dangerous combo, but - unlike Claw/RSC - it's an 'equal opportunities' combo. Almost every team can get the MB/PO part quite easily, and a wide range of teams can get Claw too.

The two concerns are:

1) Chaos Dwarves - as the team who can get the full combo on players who start with Block and Tackle. There were too many posters in that thread saying, 'But CDs need one double …' As if it's a rare thing … Rolling Eyes

2) Elves - as the teams who can't get the combo at all without two doubles on the same player … They get to be bludgeoned with this, but will have trouble hitting back. I'll admit I'm having trouble seeing this as a bad thing … Wink

But in any case, elves still have the usual refuge of Blodge (or Wrestle for Block), and of (as can't be said too often) Fend too. I see Fend as the first skill to go to for any coach who wants to focus on positioning and the ball, and minimise the blood-letting.

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TuernRedvenom

Joined: Apr 12, 2005

Posted: Dec 21, 2006 - 09:44

Quote:

1) Chaos Dwarves - as the team who can get the full combo on players who start with Block and Tackle. There were too many posters in that thread saying, 'But CDs need one double …' As if it's a rare thing …

IMO the idea was to get more Claw players out there to hurt the bash teams. It matters little to elves (may even be beneficial as otherwise CD's often took Diving Tackle on a double) as they are AV7 or 8. For bashy teams it matters a bit. They need to suffer more from bashing now that aging is gone so I don't really see the problem here.

Piling On: yes, it's a very dangerous skill but as has been said it can be countered by a general skill. Every team should build up some lino's with fend to counter it IMO. I can see it becoming a problem for Khemri mummies which can grab the skill at 6 spp's and start dominating before the rest has had time to skill the counterplayers to that.

Webbe

Joined: Aug 13, 2003

Posted: Dec 21, 2006 - 10:01

TuernRedvenom wrote:

IMO the idea was to get more Claw players out there to hurt the bash teams. It matters little to elves (may even be beneficial as otherwise CD's often took Diving Tackle on a double) as they are AV7 or 8.

HE and DE are mainly av8 so it still is very very powerful against them. Just cause it's better against av9 doesn't mean it's not deadly vs av8.

TuernRedvenom

Joined: Apr 12, 2005

Posted: Dec 21, 2006 - 10:51

Webbe wrote:

TuernRedvenom wrote:

IMO the idea was to get more Claw players out there to hurt the bash teams. It matters little to elves (may even be beneficial as otherwise CD's often took Diving Tackle on a double) as they are AV7 or 8.

HE and DE are mainly av8 so it still is very very powerful against them. Just cause it's better against av9 doesn't mean it's not deadly vs av8.

As a dark elf coach I'd still prefer the Claw/Mighty Blow player over the Stand Firm/Diving Tackle chaos dwarf by a very large margin.
It's good but certainly not "very very powerfull" if you are comparing to lrb 4 claw/rsc. It is even weaker then LRB 4 Claw + Mighty Blow.

SnakeSanders

Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Posted: Dec 21, 2006 - 12:11

OK... I did a few more calculations for stuff in LRB4 to compare Claw/RSC and Claw/MB, Claw RSC to Claw/MB/PO

LRB5

Code:

Break AV
7 8 9 10
41.67% 27.78% 16.67% 8.33% No Skills
58.33% 41.67% 27.78% 16.67% Mighty Blow
41.67% 41.67% 41.67% 41.67% Claw
58.33% 58.33% 58.33% 58.33% Claw + Mighty Blow
65.97% 47.84% 30.56% 15.97% Piling On
82.64% 65.97% 47.84% 30.56% Piling On + Mighty Blow
65.97% 65.97% 65.97% 65.97% Piling On + Claw
82.64% 82.64% 82.64% 82.64% Piling On + Mighty Blow + Claw
72.22% 58.33% 41.67% 27.78% LRB4 Claw

Casualty Rates
7 8 9 10
6.94% 4.63% 2.78% 1.39% No Skills
14.35% 10.03% 6.48% 3.70% Mighty Blow
6.94% 6.94% 6.94% 6.94% Claw
14.35% 14.35% 14.35% 14.35% Claw + Mighty Blow
16.78% 11.83% 7.41% 3.82% Piling On
16.78% 16.78% 16.78% 16.78% Piling On + Claw
31.18% 23.38% 16.05% 9.62% Piling On + Mighty Blow
31.18% 31.18% 31.18% 31.18% Claw + Piling On + Mighty Blow

LRB4

Code:

Break AV
7 8 9 10
41.67% 27.78% 16.67% 8.33% No Skills
58.33% 41.67% 27.78% 16.67% Mighty Blow
72.22% 58.33% 41.67% 27.78% LRB4 Claw

Casualty Rates
7 8 9 10
6.94% 4.63% 2.78% 1.39% No Skills
12.03% 9.72% 6.94% 4.63% LRB4 Claw
17.36% 11.58% 6.94% 3.47% LRB4 RSC
20.06% 16.20% 11.57% 7.71% LRB4 Mighty Blow + Claw
24.31% 17.36% 11.58% 6.94% LRB4 Mighty Blow + RSC
30.09% 24.30% 17.36% 11.58% LRB4 Claw + RSC

I think its right, but would someone check over LRB4 for me?

Another thing to take into account for LRB5 is that niggles also add to the inj roll, whereas in LRB4 they dont... which makes things even more nasty for your killer players...
A few more thoughts of the change (from me)
RSC+Claw have no counter (well aside from much higher AV), whereas the PO/MB/Claw can be countered to an extent by Fend, and a players AV of 7 (skaven etc renders the skill useless... but not a really good arguement though
Seems to me that Chaos can bash just as well in LRB5 as in LRB4... though their fouling ability has been hit, they now can punch harder than they ever could in LRB4. Another hidden bonus to this is that they dont need to use their doubles to do so now in LRB5, meaning they can use doubles to gain other useful skills, like Dodge etc.
One bad aspect of Loading up on PO/MB/Claw is the loss of position, opening up for fouls and reduced amount of blocks will happen more.
Nerfed fouling is less important, as it will play a smaller role as your hitting power is improved.

Its not an arguement saying that Chaos are any different... the removal of RSC does look shocking, but when you actually compare the numbers LRB5 is a lot tougher, but it does come with a price... Im enjoying it so far! Chaos teams are always slow to start, but my Nurgle (similar) are starting to kick in now

SnakeSanders

Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Posted: Dec 21, 2006 - 12:39

Im unsure, but PO and Claw will work together in LRB4?

meaning at AV7 Claw + PO you get 92.5% AV breaks?

and adding in RSC, so PO/Claw/RSC gives you cas rates of 38.5% at AV7?

fen

Joined: Sep 10, 2005

Posted: Dec 21, 2006 - 13:04

brownrob wrote:

Chaos teams are always slow to start, but my Nurgle (similar) are starting to kick in now

By similar you mean better right? Wink

SnakeSanders

Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Posted: Dec 21, 2006 - 13:12

yeah... but it sort of evens out when you are as cursed as I am! Im still smarting from the game where i rolled stuns on all 9 successful AV rolls with MB and my opponent gave me KO or worse 10 times of 12 Laughing

Just by reading the numbers I dont think Chaos are doomed just yet, though that 38.5% alarms me for LRB4

TuernRedvenom

Joined: Apr 12, 2005

Posted: Dec 21, 2006 - 13:16

Rob, when do you let Pile On count in those calculation? In my experience most coaches only use when they have broken armour but roll a "stunned" result. In any way, I don't see many ppl rerolling a ko result.

SnakeSanders

Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Posted: Dec 21, 2006 - 13:24

TuernRedvenom wrote:

Rob, when do you let Pile On count in those calculation? In my experience most coaches only use when they have broken armour but roll a "stunned" result. In any way, I don't see many ppl rerolling a ko result.

Im guessing you havent played many of the blood thirsty cretins on fumbbl then Smile

Piling on can be useful, particularly if you need to keep a player down, to PO their AV to keep them stunned to stop reaching you etc... and some people just want to cause as many cas, and gain as many spp as possible as well.

those stats are geared to maximum carnage... they could be rerun with removal from pitch as well... but the important thing is to correlate them to LRB4, removal of ageing and weakened apo

Vanguard

Joined: Nov 01, 2003

Posted: Dec 21, 2006 - 14:31

fend is a weak argument

you need 1 player with claw + pilling on + mighty blow to hurt much ´but you need 11 players with fend not to suffer

btw chaoswill need many stars to compete, and i miss that someone see the massiv !!! balance thing they did with the change of spp and tr / ts
only skills and no spp count in, means a legend with possible +12 tr = claw + pilling on + mighty blow + frenzy + block + tackle
and more does a chaos coach not want ... dont say tentacles over frenzy its the same math ^^

but the way to get such a legend will be hard and in a smal league simply not reachable, but here on fumbbl it will be devasting .... believe it or not ^^

TuernRedvenom

Joined: Apr 12, 2005

Posted: Dec 21, 2006 - 14:57

Vanguard wrote:

fend is a weak argument

you need 1 player with claw + pilling on + mighty blow to hurt much ´but you need 11 players with fend not to suffer

You can still screen with Fend players, or man mark (wrestle, fend). Or you can blitz that killing machine yourself. Or foul him when he's down for pile on.

Quote:

btw chaoswill need many stars to compete, and i miss that someone see the massiv !!! balance thing they did with the change of spp and tr / ts
only skills and no spp count in, means a legend with possible +12 tr = claw + pilling on + mighty blow + frenzy + block + tackle
and more does a chaos coach not want ... dont say tentacles over frenzy its the same math ^^

Sure that will happen. Some players might make it that far. But remember other teams can make the same build of players, and players will die more often and get retired faster because of the changed apo.
That kind of player will exist when FUMBBL switches to LRB 5. But there sure won't be many of them!
Compare it to current werewolves and one turners, they will be (or, at least, "should be") viciously targeted by everyone in the league giving them a short lifespan.

Quote:

but the way to get such a legend will be hard and in a smal league simply not reachable, but here on fumbbl it will be devasting .... believe it or not ^^

I don't see the problem. This is inherent to FUMBBL, you will always get the freak results like a team with 4 of those monsters that just won't die. Or a team with str 4 wardancers. Or...
Unless you restrict it in the ruleset severely gamebreaking players will always be present on FUMBBL. So it's not worth it (because it also kills a lot of the fun -> aiming for the near unreachable), because most of the Blood Bowl that GW cares about is not played on FUMBBL.