| Poll |
| Should sportsmanship be part of this brutal sport? |
| Always. Play with dignity and pride. The touchdowns will come naturally. |
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24% |
[ 107 ] |
| Sometimes. I only kill as many as absolutely necessary to win. |
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27% |
[ 120 ] |
| Never. Concede or die! |
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8% |
[ 37 ] |
| Bashy teams bash. If you and your poncy elves don't like it, sod off! |
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38% |
[ 168 ] |
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| Total Votes : 432 |
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Shorty
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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 Posted:
Feb 15, 2003 - 02:10 |
 
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Sportsmanship
Function: noun
Date: 1745
: conduct (as fairness, respect for one's opponent, and graciousness in winning or losing) becoming to one participating in a sport.
Bloodbowl is a very simple competition and success, regardless of your definition, can be reached through various means.
Let us begin with the goals. For some, the ultimate goal might be first place in league standings, or winning the championship game, if one is played. For others, the goal might be team development achievable by obtaining any number of complementary skills for the various players on the roster. Some coaches might be ambitious enough to attempt to create a lasting legacy of legendary players and unreachable statistics. Be it fame, power, prestige, respect, or simply to promote bowel movements among their opponents during kickoff, all coaches have a goal in mind for themselves, their team, and the individual players. Whatever your goal, skills will facilitate achieving them and enough spp will provide those skills.
Despite their close connection, a match can quickly turn into an spp harvest rather than a competition of skill to determine the superior team. And, while a complete pass and a touchdown provides twice as many spp than a caused casualty, it is sometimes difficult to pass up the opportunity to maximize gain. Increased casualties to the opponent provide a greater advantage, greatly increasing a team's ability to control the ball, complete more passes, score more touchdowns, and, of course, cause more casualties, thus maximizing the spp gain. In theory, this cycle can gain momentum exponentially and, in actuality, has caused the retirement of many teams.
I have come to the conclusion that the issue is a matter of rules and sportsmanship. Many view fouling as an obscenity and a blatent disregard for the sport and the nature of true competition. Others view fouling as a necessary evil; the great equalizer in a sport where not all are created with the ability to score given "fair" conditions. Still others view fouling as "the nature of their team" and "well within the rules" and choose to accept whatever consequences accompany their controversial tactics. But this is not simply a matter of fouling.
When does a team's physical domination become unnecessary brutality? Should any opportunity to inflict casualty be overlooked regardless of anything as trivial as "the score"? Just when is enough, enough? Is there such thing as "too much of a good thing"? And just how much should be gained at the expense of another?
Many coaches feel that the sky is the limit until the final whistle blows. The option to concede the match is always available and the loser should just throw in the towel. Yet some coaches refuse to concede as a matter of pride. And some coaches feel it would be disrespectful to their opponent if they were to pull their punches. The questoin is a matter of sportsmanship. In short, is there room for sportsmanship in a game appropriately called Bloodbowl? |
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Mr-Klipp
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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| Posted:
Feb 15, 2003 - 02:47 |
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Another point I'd like to make, related to fouling, is intentional delay of game. What I find particually amusing is that the coaches who rally against fouling are the same ones to defend delaying the game as completely fair and within the spirit of the game. What it comes down to is this is not a game of fair play, fine silver and tea coasies. If the star elven catcher is on the ground by 6 goblins, they are going to foul him, and with a bit of luck seriously reduce their opponents scoring potential through the rest of the game. This is rather obviously a distinct advantage, and few would pass up a good chance at gaining advantage. However, not being polite to your opponent, or fouling on the last turn for no reason at all heads into the realm of what I would call poor sportsmanship. Other than that sort of thing, the pounding is a part of the game. You want ag 4? Here you go, but you aren't going to be as strong or tough. That's life, you can't have it all, and you can't expect your opponents not to use the advantages his team provides. You don't hear the bashy teams complaning that you dodge away too much and pass the ball around too easily. If you don't like getting broken, pick a tougher team or be more selective about your opponents. |
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EvolveToAnarchism
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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| Posted:
Feb 15, 2003 - 05:25 |
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Wuhan
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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| Posted:
Feb 15, 2003 - 06:44 |
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Think, what's the best Blood bowl game you've ever played?
Mine are score 3-3, with 3-4 cas a piece.
Try to do it all. Score, Cause Casualties, Foul. Make needless passes with throwers to catchers. Get an advantage.
Have fun, Make a game of it. |
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JackDragna
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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| Posted:
Feb 15, 2003 - 09:08 |
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Sportsmanship in this game should extend to saying "good game" after every game and not taking the game too seriously. As for the other topics, I hold fouling to be just another part of the game. It's there for a reason: the 'theme' of Blood Bowl is is a ruthless team sport. If you won't use it, then I've got one up on you. I generally don't foul first, as I prefer to not risk losing players, but if my opponent starts it I will grind their players into the dust until there's not an opponent left on the pitch.
As regards stalling with the ball, I think it's fine and personally think people who complain about it should go jump in the river. Being able to hold the ball is an advantage of a power team. If you're going to give me hell for delaying, then I want to be able to give elves hell for dodging through my tackle zones and scoring like mad. If my team's good enough at muscling you up that I can sit with the ball and not worry about scoring, that's a boon for my team, one that I got through crafting my players to play a certain way.
This is Blood Bowl, folks, not tiddlywinks. This is a game that encourages ruthlessness. If you want just normal ol' sports, go play video games. I want a game that satisfies my cravings for strategy, skullduggery and putting a boot in a downed man's groin. |
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Korhil
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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| Posted:
Feb 15, 2003 - 10:19 |
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To win, you need more TD's
So if you go and try score with Dwarfs in 3 turns against Elves, only one thing happens, you lose. Elves will be better at consistantly running in fast TD's. As a Slower team, you have to keep time with the ball, if they want it, they have to come close which means you'll get you CAS from blocking them off. If you score in T5 of the 2nd half to make it 2-1 against Elves... you cant expect anything other than a Draw, waiting til T8 is part of playing the game correctly with slow teams.
Deciding when to score in Elves vs Elves becomes VERY important near the end of each half as well.
So, 'stalling' cant possibly be bad sportsmanship when its infact correct play to win. What could cause it to qualify as bad sportsmanship would be not only holding up on scoring, but speficically going after their players as they just try dodge away... you should treat it like the concession it really is, just skip past the last few turns, score, get the win. If your going to win, there is no need to kill an opponents team. I doubt anyone wants there team killed off really.
Fouling, thats part of the game too, but the sportmanship factor of it just relates to if your already winning. If your going to win the game, then theres no need to keep killing players.
I think the most pathetic lack of sportmanship is fouling in T8 of the 2nd half, it wont make you win any more than you are if your winning... and if your losing for whatever reason and you just want to release anger... learn to take a loss sometime.
Its an OPEN league... having a reputation as a coach that just goes out to kill players wont get you games.
Playing in a CUP everything is different, your playing to win at all costs. Tho I tend to think that if you've lost and foul to try make your opponents team weaker for the next round that your no showing great sportmanship either. Just cos ya lost doesnt qualify the need to try make you opponents time harder.
---Korhil |
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Mnemon
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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| Posted:
Feb 15, 2003 - 15:54 |
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| Korhil wrote: | To win, you need more TD's
Its an OPEN league... having a reputation as a coach that just goes out to kill players wont get you games.
Playing in a CUP everything is different, your playing to win at all costs. Tho I tend to think that if you've lost and foul to try make your opponents team weaker for the next round that your no showing great sportmanship either. Just cos ya lost doesnt qualify the need to try make you opponents time harder.
---Korhil |
Exactly that is the point I think. I absolutely don't play with the aim to win - or to be high in rankings or to score a lot TD's; I just play to have a bit fun, as a diversion. Due to that I DO have a somewhat risky playing style, just because it is so much nicer when those seemingly impossible passes and TD's work. I know why I like stunty league  .
As to fouling; I hardly ever use it - and I don't own, nor will ever own a dirty player. Fouling is okay when I can detect a purpose behind it - fouling a dodgy catcher that is knocked prone two steps from the endzone _does_ make some sense. Those coaches that used a dirty player on me because they obviously forgot it is just a game, ended up on my ignore list on IRC - I can't see what they say, hence I won't play them and everybody is happy .
Regarding stalling - yes it is a valid tactic with strength teams. I hate it though as I feel nothing is more boring than that. I hardly ever do it with my own strength teams - see fun over winning section above. But as pointed out earlier in the thread, everybody plays in fumbbl with her/his own goals - I just generally try to avoid games that look like they might end up with a lot of stalling.
In how far this is relevant to the thread - no idea, but I felt like writing something .
-Mnemon |
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TamperMagnitude
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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| Posted:
Feb 15, 2003 - 22:28 |
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I think the context of the blocking needs to be taken in to account. I always play hard, and don't ask any quarter in return. If i happen to playing a team that is less capable of trading blow for blow i'm not gonna hold off for that reason as it's probably the only advantage i have over them. They'll probably be quicker, more agile and better passers than my team, and they arent going to stop dodging and only move half their move allowance in sympathy. Putting them under pressure, making them fear for their lives is a valid tactic, as is stalling. However, I think sportsmanship does come into it with stalling. Chasing a few players round the pitch picking them off one by one when you can score without any dice rolls and they can't touch you is a bit harsh, even on poncy elves. Fouling is also a valid tactic, I don't hesiate to throw a foul or two in if it's a decent player i can take out the game, or it will give me my scoring chance, but again, pointless fouling of helpless players which give you no real adavantage should really be frowned upon. Unless, of course it's the sort of game where both sides are doing it  |
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Chappy
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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| Posted:
Feb 15, 2003 - 23:39 |
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I'm sure he really meant 'Great job Evo, hope to play you again soon'......
As far as sportsmanship goes, everyone plays their own way. If you win that way great, if you lose then be gracious about it. After all this is game, have fun with it. I hate losing as much as the next guys but I hate whiners 1000 times more than losing. In a nutshell.....be social, have fun, and don't complain too much. Everyone has a bad game here and there.......... |
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jacobs40k
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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| Posted:
Feb 16, 2003 - 01:01 |
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The above being said, I always give my opponents the option of playing a game with no fouls. I have found that I like playing better without the sword of fouling hanging over my head and I can only assume my opponents feel the same. If my adversary chooses not to agree, so be it, but that hasn't happened so far. The reason I ask the above question, is not so much that I think fouling is unnecessary, but that I have never had any luck with foul rolls. Perhaps if I had had better luck, I might be a fouling team.
All in all, if you don't like fouling or being fouled, Blood Bowl may not be the right game for a hobby. Or start campaigning for the Honourable trait to be added along with the teams that make use of the trait.
Jake. |
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Garax
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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| Posted:
Feb 22, 2003 - 15:37 |
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DAMNIT! lol. This is Blood Bowl. Operative word being blood. If you complain because an Orge puts his fist through your star high elf catchers face on turn 8 and you can't see a reason its because hes an orge, bashing is what he does. Fouling is part of the game or it wouldn't be in the rules would it? You can't say something that is part of a game is unfair, unless you're talking about the Eldar in 40K. Seriously though, if you don't like the violence behind blood bowl then why the hell are you playing the game? Its the main drive behind blood bowl, the violence is the game. How little fun would Blood Bowl be if you weren't allowed to kill people? Not much fun methinks. But hey I'm new here, what do I know. |
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GalaxyPenguin
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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| Posted:
Feb 22, 2003 - 16:21 |
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I personally think useless fouls are outside the realm of good sportsmanship... However, I kinda see BB coaches like WWE Wrestlers, some you love to hate, you have good guys and bad guys.
What it comes down to for me is if I know you're gonna foul me every chance you get, needed or not, Im not going to play you... Its my choice. |
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Dan
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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Feb 22, 2003 - 19:25 |
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I think sportsmanship is only really an issue in T8 second half. Any other turn in the game pushing someone out of bounds or fouling can be seen as useful...less players against you etc etc. However on T8 2nd I look at it like this.....I don't run players around if they can't do any good. "Why?" I hear you ask, well because it's pointless. THEREFORE why do people think it's less worthwhile to foul one of my players or push someone out of bounds? What possible gain can they get from hurting my players? All it makes me do is moan like a girl (apologies to our female players) and stick 'em on the "do not play unless using my AV9 team vs there poncy elf side". Yes BB is a bloody game, and tbh we all smile to ourselves when we kill someone's star blitzer (etc), but don't set out to break my team please. I spent hours of my time getting that +AG WD tackle and strip ball, don't kill him just becuase you can...... |
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grimfang
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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| Posted:
Feb 22, 2003 - 21:28 |
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I have only used foul once... just got my guy tossed out of the game. Its part of the rules, so i do not really care too much if my opponant uses it... I just like to know in advance if that is part of thier playbook. Fouling a player for strategic purposes is ok.. specifically targeting star players, particularly catcher-types, is just not cool.
I was guilty once of knocking an oponant's players off the pitch in turn 8... it was a mistake.. i thought i got the spps for that. I apologized, and felt like an ass.
What really bothers me is a guy who is winning 3-0, and has completly punished an opponant.. the poor victim is trying to escape to safty, not even caringa bout the ball anymore.. and the brute chooses to pursue, surround, pile -on, and foul still. I saw it done once... not to me... it was the most un-entertaing, unsportsmanlike thing i have ever seen. All it managed to do was turn-off a young player. NOt a good way to help us grow as a community. |
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Darathin
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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| Posted:
Feb 25, 2003 - 12:45 |
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Sportsman what .
I agree with Korhil, you have to play to your strengths. I saw a severly understrength Dark Elf Team (6 players) come back from 3-0 down to nearly win in the last turn thanks to those damn Witch 'tackle zones what are they' Elves. If a Orc team has to knock down all the oposition before it can get the ball and score then so be it...thats how they play...then fair dues to em! The key to winning is tactics and errr luck. Good sportsmanship is to play the way you enjoy playing, it is a deluded Elf opponent who thinks that he can take on a team of orcs or chaos and not get a few injuries! As for fouling well thats part of the game and is a risky tactic as you can get sent off...imagine losing your star ogre only to get a KO. Anyway, if an opponent fouls me I take it as a 'ding ding round two' wake up call and join in the fun .
As for teams who completely deck an opponent 3-0 or more then the oposition is using the wrong tactics or is just having a bad day...it happens...we have all had the three skulls block roll followed by the three skulls reroll...argggghhh. I found to my cost that taking on teams with largely greater TR's is a very bad idea .
AVE IT  .
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Darathin |
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