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2013-06-15 22:50:01
12 votes, rating 4.1
12 votes, rating 4.1
Min-Maxing in Blackbox ... with Slanns!
I have been having a hard time playing my Slanns in the Box; first few games were alright with one of the teams, but as I progressed in TV, I realised the bloat that the Blitzers do to the team put me right up there very quickly with the heavily developped teams.
It's not so much a problem in Ranked or even tournaments as Inducements compensate well for that. But in the Box, you are matched against a similar TV, so no crazy Inducement, the team needs to be "worth" it's value.
So I have been trying more recently to have a leaner TV, much more efficient and see how, and if, min-maxing with Slanns works. The team I'm using at the moment and trying with is here: Lustrian Green Tree Croakers
First players to cut from the team were the Blitzers.The Catchers can be the stars: they are less expensive (easily replaced), they can handle the ball very easily to win games and will accumulate spps fast which will allow to have the skills required quickly. Whereas Blitzers are more long term investements and bloat TV immensely.
Catchers, 2 will be my scorers: Blodge, Fend. Not sure about side step yet. I'm thinking about cutting them from the team after Fend and start afresh, unless I roll a stat or double...
I will need my "thrower", at the moment I have a nice AG5
The last one will be a sacker, wrackler, strip ball, dauntless... I don't think a linefrog will get there fast enough, so a catcher will have to do it for now.
Linefrogs, I'm planning to develop a couple as dedicated sackers, and I will "protect" them as such; but the other ones I'm thinking Wrestle and Fend at most to increase their survivability. But I don't expect them to live stay past their first skill... No skill only maybe... The idea is still the same: lean TV.
I'm thinking about only having 11 players too. Risky, but the Catchers should be able to still score, even if I lose one or two of them and half of my team, so I'm gambling on that.
Team rerolls, I'll stay at 4 (I'd have 5 in Ranked), and might even go lower to 3, depending on how developped the Catchers are. I don't intend to reroll any failed Leap on Linefrogs anymore, and I've gotten used to play with loners so...
The one I'm not sure yet with is the Krox. He can take a lot of hits, but in Box he can be marked very easily and rendered useless the whole game. If I exchange him for a frog, I only save about 80k, so I think I'd be giving a Bloodweiser Babe away for now.
On the other hand, 80k, that's 4 skills extra my opponent will have... 4 guard the opposing Dwarf team, 4 dodge on the opposing elf team... I believe that might make me struggle, and when my players will be a bit better developped I'll probably cut the Krox from the team...
Thoughts? Am I being silly to even try it? Is there a better way to play Slanns in the Box? Min-Max = bad = boooooo?
It's not so much a problem in Ranked or even tournaments as Inducements compensate well for that. But in the Box, you are matched against a similar TV, so no crazy Inducement, the team needs to be "worth" it's value.
So I have been trying more recently to have a leaner TV, much more efficient and see how, and if, min-maxing with Slanns works. The team I'm using at the moment and trying with is here: Lustrian Green Tree Croakers
First players to cut from the team were the Blitzers.The Catchers can be the stars: they are less expensive (easily replaced), they can handle the ball very easily to win games and will accumulate spps fast which will allow to have the skills required quickly. Whereas Blitzers are more long term investements and bloat TV immensely.
Catchers, 2 will be my scorers: Blodge, Fend. Not sure about side step yet. I'm thinking about cutting them from the team after Fend and start afresh, unless I roll a stat or double...
I will need my "thrower", at the moment I have a nice AG5
The last one will be a sacker, wrackler, strip ball, dauntless... I don't think a linefrog will get there fast enough, so a catcher will have to do it for now.
Linefrogs, I'm planning to develop a couple as dedicated sackers, and I will "protect" them as such; but the other ones I'm thinking Wrestle and Fend at most to increase their survivability. But I don't expect them to live stay past their first skill... No skill only maybe... The idea is still the same: lean TV.
I'm thinking about only having 11 players too. Risky, but the Catchers should be able to still score, even if I lose one or two of them and half of my team, so I'm gambling on that.
Team rerolls, I'll stay at 4 (I'd have 5 in Ranked), and might even go lower to 3, depending on how developped the Catchers are. I don't intend to reroll any failed Leap on Linefrogs anymore, and I've gotten used to play with loners so...
The one I'm not sure yet with is the Krox. He can take a lot of hits, but in Box he can be marked very easily and rendered useless the whole game. If I exchange him for a frog, I only save about 80k, so I think I'd be giving a Bloodweiser Babe away for now.
On the other hand, 80k, that's 4 skills extra my opponent will have... 4 guard the opposing Dwarf team, 4 dodge on the opposing elf team... I believe that might make me struggle, and when my players will be a bit better developped I'll probably cut the Krox from the team...
Thoughts? Am I being silly to even try it? Is there a better way to play Slanns in the Box? Min-Max = bad = boooooo?
Comments
Posted by Chainsaw on 2013-06-15 23:01:49
Regarding the Krox:
"but in Box he can be marked very easily and rendered useless the whole game"
What's that? He can't be marked in ranked? Didn't know that was a rule.
"but in Box he can be marked very easily and rendered useless the whole game"
What's that? He can't be marked in ranked? Didn't know that was a rule.
Posted by Cavetroll on 2013-06-15 23:22:45
Min-Max = bad = boooooo!
Posted by Johnny_KTOU on 2013-06-15 23:23:12
;) In box there are mainly heavy teams, that will just leave a zombie or similar for the Krox to play with... Elves, skavens, lighter teams in general don't do that as well (AV7 or too expensive lines), and will try and get away, freeing up the Kroxigor.
I find the Krox less efficient agains heavy teams that's all and they're the teams we're more likely to end up against in Box.
Although I find the Krox invaluable normally, I am wondering in Box if he's worth its weight.
I find the Krox less efficient agains heavy teams that's all and they're the teams we're more likely to end up against in Box.
Although I find the Krox invaluable normally, I am wondering in Box if he's worth its weight.
Posted by uzkulak on 2013-06-15 23:24:57
slann blitzers are not worth the money, this is sensible management, not minmaxing.
Keep the Krox, it gives yov options.
Keep the Krox, it gives yov options.
Posted by huff on 2013-06-15 23:36:17
Yeah, I would hardly associate what you have planned as min-maxing. It's definitly not the exploitive way of min-maxing.
I'm kinda anti-big ATM so say roll without the krox. I also think you'll be ok with 4 rrs. Your Slann are gonna be looking like a tournament roster and have a base cost of 990tv with 4 rrs, apoth, 4 catchers and 7 linos. Add in say 6 ff over time and that gives you 450 of TV to work with (that's a lot of skills) before reaching the 1500 TV mark.
Good Luck brother, roll those dice!
I'm kinda anti-big ATM so say roll without the krox. I also think you'll be ok with 4 rrs. Your Slann are gonna be looking like a tournament roster and have a base cost of 990tv with 4 rrs, apoth, 4 catchers and 7 linos. Add in say 6 ff over time and that gives you 450 of TV to work with (that's a lot of skills) before reaching the 1500 TV mark.
Good Luck brother, roll those dice!
Posted by Araznaroth on 2013-06-15 23:48:23
https://fumbbl.com/FUMBBL.php?page=match&op=view&id=3309517
This game went way too well and when I told I was min/maxin slann he din't like it at all. Offcourse I was on a recoverygame with superdice but it was fun. (on my part)
This game went way too well and when I told I was min/maxin slann he din't like it at all. Offcourse I was on a recoverygame with superdice but it was fun. (on my part)
Posted by BillBrasky on 2013-06-16 01:59:21
Min maxing with Slann is kind of an oxymoron.
The team is ineffective and bloated. They are fun. I do love them. I don't know if you can truly min/max them & have a playable team. Every team has to effectively manage TV in black box. I agree the blitzers are not worth their TV. I think running with 11 players is a huge mistake. I find that with frogs I need a bench at every TV. Frogs have to play aggressive defense therefore they will take more hits.
Good luck!
The team is ineffective and bloated. They are fun. I do love them. I don't know if you can truly min/max them & have a playable team. Every team has to effectively manage TV in black box. I agree the blitzers are not worth their TV. I think running with 11 players is a huge mistake. I find that with frogs I need a bench at every TV. Frogs have to play aggressive defense therefore they will take more hits.
Good luck!
Posted by Jeffro on 2013-06-16 03:15:00
+1 Brasky.
Happygrue has been as effective with slann as I've seen, and HIS philosophy is to develop the blitzers FIRST... sometimes before you even BUY the catchers. The catchers are cheaper, yes... and easier to skill. Having the developed blitzer core around them helps with that.
But NONE of it contributes to the possibility of min-maxing with the race. Not the krox, not the skill positions, not the linos... none of it.
Happygrue has been as effective with slann as I've seen, and HIS philosophy is to develop the blitzers FIRST... sometimes before you even BUY the catchers. The catchers are cheaper, yes... and easier to skill. Having the developed blitzer core around them helps with that.
But NONE of it contributes to the possibility of min-maxing with the race. Not the krox, not the skill positions, not the linos... none of it.
Posted by Jasfmpgh on 2013-06-16 07:07:46
4 Catchers seems like too many..
In Box you'd need to dump the Krox above 1400 TV. No point in having him once you hit the clawpombers.
In Box you'd need to dump the Krox above 1400 TV. No point in having him once you hit the clawpombers.
Posted by Wizfall on 2013-06-16 08:31:46
Except the sacking catchers part if no +stat/double, it's not min maxing but good management.
I like Fend but at low TV (under 1300TV) it's going to kill you (one fend may give one more Guard or MB or dodge to your opponent, all these skills having a much bigger impact at low TV).
Otherwise as Brasky said.
I like Fend but at low TV (under 1300TV) it's going to kill you (one fend may give one more Guard or MB or dodge to your opponent, all these skills having a much bigger impact at low TV).
Otherwise as Brasky said.
Posted by Johnny_KTOU on 2013-06-16 11:40:45
Thanks everyone for all your responses. I'm not deluded, proper Min-Max is not gonna happen with Slanns. But I intend to stay low (below 1400-1450) and see if that works.
Going to get rid of the Krox and replace him with Lines and get a 12th player as advised.
But regarding the blitzers, and I know how successful happygrue is (not denying that!!), getting further than 2 skills is awfully hard with them, only to see them die at 30 spps... Don't get me wrong, I love them and use them all the time, love the mobility with MV7&JU, possibilities with the skill choices, but in Box, I don't see them get there - but I might be (or even am) wrong.
Catchers will die much quicker, yes, but they'll be much more useful until then, and are more likely to skill up way quicker. Wiz, I hear you on Fend; I'm not there yet, so it'll depend on how many PO I'll find on the way.
I'll keep blogging about them once in a while.
Thanks everyone.
Going to get rid of the Krox and replace him with Lines and get a 12th player as advised.
But regarding the blitzers, and I know how successful happygrue is (not denying that!!), getting further than 2 skills is awfully hard with them, only to see them die at 30 spps... Don't get me wrong, I love them and use them all the time, love the mobility with MV7&JU, possibilities with the skill choices, but in Box, I don't see them get there - but I might be (or even am) wrong.
Catchers will die much quicker, yes, but they'll be much more useful until then, and are more likely to skill up way quicker. Wiz, I hear you on Fend; I'm not there yet, so it'll depend on how many PO I'll find on the way.
I'll keep blogging about them once in a while.
Thanks everyone.
Posted by Overhamsteren on 2013-06-16 11:59:52
Don't play a lot of slann but I will follow the same idea :)
https://fumbbl.com/FUMBBL.php?page=team&op=view&team_id=717556
TFF have a thread on it too, you have to register to read it though.
http://www.talkfantasyfootball.org/viewtopic.php?f=25&t=38105
https://fumbbl.com/FUMBBL.php?page=team&op=view&team_id=717556
TFF have a thread on it too, you have to register to read it though.
http://www.talkfantasyfootball.org/viewtopic.php?f=25&t=38105
Posted by Johnny_KTOU on 2013-06-16 13:30:17
Yep, that's where the idea comes from (the TFF thread and Smeborg post).
I disagree with Smeborg about not using Krox or Blitzers in leagues in general, as TV bloat isn't too much of an issue IMO.
But he has a very good point and knows what he's doing when it's down to TV efficiency, and that's what Blackbox is about.
I like your team's skeleton, the only thing I'd change would be turning down the double rolls for skills on linefrog and take wrestle or kick (silly me :) )
I disagree with Smeborg about not using Krox or Blitzers in leagues in general, as TV bloat isn't too much of an issue IMO.
But he has a very good point and knows what he's doing when it's down to TV efficiency, and that's what Blackbox is about.
I like your team's skeleton, the only thing I'd change would be turning down the double rolls for skills on linefrog and take wrestle or kick (silly me :) )
Posted by BillBrasky on 2013-06-16 14:25:50
Oh.
Also:
You badly need kick skill.
That won me many slaan games. Kick plus Blitz = gold.
Also:
You badly need kick skill.
That won me many slaan games. Kick plus Blitz = gold.
Posted by Overhamsteren on 2013-06-16 21:19:40
Yeah those doubles haven't really done much so far if I remember correctly but maybe Nuffle liked them and let me win my games. :P