the.tok
Joined: Jan 25, 2006
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  Posted:
Apr 18, 2013 - 11:55 |
 
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Hello fellow masochists 
I've been playing ogres more than any other team recently. I enjoy them very much, they're a very fun team. Terrible but very fun. Everything seems to be possible... but unlikely, and I like it 
In every single game I find myself struggling, and even a draw is a moral victory... for which I need a great amount of luck 
When I do win (excluding other stunties) it is usually a combination of insight + opponents mistake + dice rape
For the record, here is my team :
http://fumbbl.com/FUMBBL.php?page=team&op=view&team_id=681631
Usually, matches go on this way :
On offense, I put 3 Ogres on the line + 1 or 2 snots to get 3DBs. Other ogres are in the backfield, 5 squares from the end zone to reach the ball ASAP.
Then I try to pick-up the ball with a break tackle ogre,which can take several turns sometimes and cage around him with my whole team, trying to avoid contact and make 3DBs blitzes every turn. It usually doesn't work too bad if I'm lucky enough to make a few KOs
I try to score on turn 6/7. Turn 8 is too risky, I failed BH on the BC on turn 8 one time too many 
But then Is the problem. I usually cannot protect snots doing this, and ,I end up my drive with very few snots left... and then it is impossible to defend, and I take 1/2/3 TD in one half. TTM never seems to work either.
How do you defend with ogres generally?
Another problem I have is with skill-ups :
On snotlings, my first normal goes to diving tackle, so they have a real tackle zone, sort of. But then? I don't see a second skill worth having. Do you?
On doubles, I've been happy with kick, and especially DP on them. Did you try block? what's your opinion on it?
On ogres, doubles are auto-block to me, block ogres are great!
Normal skill, break tackle is really good too.
I tried pile-on, but was not really convinced. I need them standing usually. One is OK though, for when I need a blitz to hurt.
I tried guard, it is OK. What are your thoughts on juggernaut?
Another useful skill I miss?
Now more specifically on my ogre team 
this ogre http://fumbbl.com/FUMBBL.php?page=player&player_id=8447240 gets a normal
this snot http://fumbbl.com/FUMBBL.php?page=player&player_id=8438507 gets a double.
What would you take for them?
Would you fire any of the snots? I find AV4/ni not being a big issue, they die anyway...
Thanks for all the insight you can provide
Cheers |
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Garion
Joined: Aug 19, 2009
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Apr 18, 2013 - 11:58 |
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all you can do is either play nothing but stunty races and chaos/nurgle and vamps at low TV. Or pray that you dice your opponent beyond belief against anyone else.
They really are that bad.
everything else is just basic knowledge of how to play bloodbowl which you already have. sorry I couldn't be more help. But this is all you really need to know. |
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Nelphine
Joined: Apr 01, 2011
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Apr 18, 2013 - 12:15 |
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not true!
I find that ogres are actually decent at beating lizardmen, because the lizardmen advantage of 7 4+ S players is almost completely negated by 6 S5 players; and where most teams can beat up snots, skinks actually have a hard time doing so.
(Although yes, I still had to completely dice my opponent to win with my ogres, and since my record is 1/4/5 with my ogres, I'm super impressed with your record)
On offense: I completely rely on luck to get the ball somewhere useful at the start. I don't have a problem using a snotling, who's screened by all the other snotlings to get the ball (although now that I have a sure hands ogre, he gets to be the ball carrier). This allows your other 5 ogres much more leeway in completely tying up the entire LOS on the half that your ball carrier is hiding behind.
On defense: I usually only put 1 or 2 ogres on the line. Sure, I'll lose snotlings.. but really.. I'm going to lose snotlings anyway. Choose to play your team as if you only have 9 players from the start, and, assuming you get used to it, it makes it much easier to position your 4 or 5 ogres to block the oncoming enemy. (Having a tackle ogre helps immensely, so you can keep him as a sweeper incase anyone tries to dive in behind your ogre line; and if they don't dive in, then hopefully 4 or 5 ogres can cause enough damage to make them regret it. This is so true, I would consider getting at least one ogre tackle before block.)
TTM never works. I'll keep trying it though (and it still causes more damage to my snotlings than half my opponents so far), and I'm looking forward to having a Strong Arm ogre and an Agi 4/5 snotling to work together in unison.
snotling skills:
I have no idea. I tried sure feet, he died. I'm trying sneaky git.. but really.. you lose snotlings fast enough without getting them banned. I would consider diving tackle, but usually my opponents are making breaks through bonehead holes and can completely ignore my entire team, so I'm not really sure how useful it would actually be. (of course, I don't like diving tackle on skinks either. so.)
a snotling who already has diving tackle should probably take block, so that IF he doesn't get pow-ed or tackled, he has a better shot at staying next to his target and on his feet.
ogres want:
break tackle, guard, piling on, grab and strong arm.
the order really is about how you play. I'd personally try for 2 guards, then 2 or 3 break tackle, then a strong arm. Piling on and Grab are for after they have at least 2 of the other skills. |
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Garion
Joined: Aug 19, 2009
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Apr 18, 2013 - 12:54 |
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You say that. But then you go on to say pretty much exactly what I said. You had loads of luck and general bloodbowl knowledge.
If you have these things you are as well equipped as you can ever be with ogres.
I guess cherry picking is vital as well, to having a good win ratio with them.
But Tok you know all you need already really. Just keep those fingers and toes crossed and pray for dice  |
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maysrill
Joined: Dec 29, 2008
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Apr 18, 2013 - 13:02 |
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The two basic paths:
1. Stick to super-low TV, specialize a few ogres rather than load up on 6, play anything but dwarfs/CDs/Norse/(maybe zons)
2. Develop 6 ogres as much as you can, cram the rest full of snotlings, and get up to 1800TV or more. Take DP on some snotlings, maybe get a +AG on one or two of them. You'll get games and knock heads, but your snotlings will be fed through a fine mesh screen every game and you'll lose about 80%. |
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Author of Firehurler (Twinborn Trilogy Book #1), Aethersmith (Book #2), Sourcethief (Book #3) |
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jamesfarrell129
Joined: Dec 23, 2009
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Apr 18, 2013 - 13:06 |
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I'm not a good ogre coach, but insights so far:
1. You had piling on on an ogre then took guard... I would have thought break tackle or juggernaut would have been a better choice.
2. Ogre-wise, first double for me is always sure hands, to give you a slightly more reliable ball-carrier, then its block all the way (maybe tackle as a 2nd, or frenzy... or even dodge)
3. snotlings... a 2nd skill without a AG increase or double should probably mean retirement. Doubles, kick is good, dauntless could be funny, maybe HMP for defensive punts?
4. don't start with 6 ogres and no rerolls. I tried it... just don't.
EDIT: oh yeah... and ogre defence? Just keep hitting people... I can't see any other way of doing it (though maybe lining 6 ogres across the pitch and not activating them could work?) |
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NAF name: sandwich |
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hale
Joined: Apr 05, 2008
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Apr 18, 2013 - 13:14 |
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A few random points of my own (questionably valid) opinion of an ogre specialist from lrb4 to crp.
I would start out by saying I think ogres have by far the most complex and demanding strategy far above any other race, constantly you will plan out the optimal turn for 1-2mins before moving only to have to completely re-plan your turn in the middle of it when the first three ogres bonehead or similar type events. Also the optimal strategy of an ogre coach probably varies more than any other race depending which race/skills you are playing against.
Offense generally you have to keep all your ogres at the front just to hold your territory, if you try to play safe by holding them back they can get subdued in your backfield and your scoring potential for that drive is greatly reduced - plus the ogres you've left foward can now likely be outnumbered or otherwise tied up by your opponents numbers. I believe the correct method is to take a risk with all your ogres foward and the snotlings behind to protect the ball carrier until he can reach his ogres for support. I don't believe in an ogre ball carrier being your first choice - I just can't justify the benefits of this over a +ag snotling. IMO ogres only make good backup ball carriers when your other options have dried up.
Snotlings are often meant to die to protect your ogres - this is particularly true against clawpomb teams but might be the opposite against a team that can't hurt your ogres. Your roster should be full with 16 snotlings at all times, you can't play with less snotlings.
Defending with ogres: I have another rather controversial (or idiotic to some) strategy regarding defense; often you simply cannot defend - and trying to will only hurt your chances of winning even more than not defending would. This post is getting too long to get into ogre defense because I think ogre defense is very complex and a different strategy exists vs. each and every team you'll play.
One unusual defensive strategy I've developed is choosing to kick if I'm against a bash team (particularly cpomb) then I put 3 rookie snots on the line - whatever happens to them doesn't matter because you have a full roster of snots. The object of your defensive drive is basically only to hurt your opponent while making sure you never lose a single ogre. Always save a reroll so you have a shot at evening the score before half-time with a TTM while exacting some more damage on the opponent's setup, if you have a spare snotling and can't score always foul with him before halftime or considering fouling anyway. Now if everything has gone well you will still have 11 players including 6 ogres to field for your drive and hopefully you've taken one or two players out of your opponents minmax 11 man roster.
Bad things about receiving with ogres are this:
- It's very hard to bash with ogres while also protecting the ball - generally you're doing one or the other, so if you choose to receive you start off being bashed
- You have to put ogres on the LoS to be clawpombed and then fouled in the 2nd half because you have no more snotlings. By kicking it means you put your three most worthless players on the line to be bashed and unless you score you won't ever have to worry about an ogre being put on the LoS for clawpombing.
- You don't get the TTM shot before halftime and you also don't get to make those extra LoS hits before you start your half. |
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hale
Joined: Apr 05, 2008
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Apr 18, 2013 - 13:26 |
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Quite a nasty offensive ogre strategy for long term development could be these skill choices: Guard, Stand Firm, Juggaknot and Frenzy (with some Break Tackle too preferably and at least one Grab). This can make it an absolute nightmare for any team to attempt defending a sideline as Sidestep and Stand Firm players of theirs are all rolling into the crowd as a cheeky little snotling can easy find a safe square on the sideline you're rampaging.
One of my main points here is the sideline is the ogre's friend on offense; in the middle of the field 6 ogres can get overwhelmed by another team's 11 and not only make it hard to advance with the ball but it can be impossible to even defend the ball. But on a sideline it's much easier for ogres to hold the balance of power, and snotlings all having sidestep is obviously very suited to this strategy also.
Though for the most part Block is by far the most solid skill choice for every first ogre double.
As for your skill choices - I would possibly choose juggaknot on the ogre and probably wrestle myself on the snotling. |
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hale
Joined: Apr 05, 2008
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Apr 18, 2013 - 13:45 |
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Also what hasn't really been mentioned in this thread but has been alluded to is that: ogres have by far the highest variance of all others races. To some this translates as meaning 'Ogres are all luck' but in fact means nothing of the sort. What variance means is that your results will greatly vary depending on the situations you receive. |
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PandyC
Joined: Mar 29, 2013
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Apr 18, 2013 - 14:44 |
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One of the strategy guides recommends Jump Up for the snots, but honestly I think I've wasted the advances, because they tend to be standing and fine, or off the pitch. Its rare I get to stand one of them up again.
Sprint has worked out well though. The number of games I've had a TTM play fail because the snot was one move short of the touchline has drastically reduced.
As for the ogres, I've been alternating between Guard and Break Tackle, which works OK but I always find the one-skill guys are always in the wrong place no matter where they start. |
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hale
Joined: Apr 05, 2008
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Apr 18, 2013 - 15:20 |
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in tackle zone #009 there was a piece on ogres, there are some things i noted down from it a while ago:
first ogre skills- break tackle and strong arm
ball moving ogre first double- pro
ball moving ogre second double- sure hands, kick off return, pass, accurate, catch
blitzing ogre double- wrestle or frenzy
normal ogre doubles- block, then pro or dodge
normal snotling skills- sure feet, diving tackle
double snotling skills- hail mary, pro, guard, dirty player, pass block
their whole strategy seems completely radical compared to anything else i've seen, and i may have got some things wrong but it does demonstrate how much versatility there can be in coaching styles |
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the.tok
Joined: Jan 25, 2006
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| Posted:
Apr 22, 2013 - 14:52 |
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| Garion wrote: |
everything else is just basic knowledge of how to play bloodbowl which you already have. |
You have obviously not played me, I'd be happy to prove you wrong. But thanks
| jamesfarrell129 wrote: | | You had piling on on an ogre then took guard... I would have thought break tackle or juggernaut would have been a better choice. |
True. My bad, and I regret it. Though, it's not as bad as you may think, the synergy certainly isn't there. 
@hale : you brought up many interesting things, some surprising to say the least. I'll try to react to some.
I do not think the ogres are "all about luck". Far from it. But I do think this is mandatory to have luck to win, as well as outplaying the opponent. To me, you need both. But if you win, you can be sure you played well, unlike with, say, skavens.
What you said about kicking first against bash teams is really good point. I will definetly try that against high tv chaos/khemri next time. And it's not like elves want to play me anyway
Going for the sideline is a very smart thing. I do it sometimes, but you stressed the point of why it is important with ogres. But it is not easy, depending on where the kick-off lands. They're so slow I'm always scared of being slowed down too much on the sideline too. Maybe I should take a few stand firm and try this.
I'm very surprised you're talking about snot being your primary ball carrier.
I did try it, it did work at very low tv. But when everyone has block, and a few tackle... or you're facing slanns.
Anyway, I found that my opponent always gets a chance to hit my BC during the drive.
If it is a snot -> 3DB -> he goes splat and I'm screwed.
If it an ogre, if he has no strip ball, he often won't even try, or fail because it's a -2DB (or -3D if Vegeta and Goku are still there :p )
I feel this safety is worth the difference between a 3+ and a 4+ pickup. And with break tackle, they are mobile too. That said, I was a khemri player in LRB4, so Ag2 is enough to me, Ag3 is not needed
I think we could have a whole thread on this particular issue though.
And about tackle zone #009 : really? their skill choices are all surprising to me :/
pro on snots? why? pass block? 
Thanks to you all that was really helpful
So I guess it has narrowed my choices.
Son Gohan will get guard or juggernaut.
Bulma will get Block or wrestle.
For now, I think I will take jugger and block, but if you have any argument one way or the other |
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jamesfarrell129
Joined: Dec 23, 2009
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| Posted:
Apr 22, 2013 - 15:28 |
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| the.tok wrote: | | jamesfarrell129 wrote: | | You had piling on on an ogre then took guard... I would have thought break tackle or juggernaut would have been a better choice. |
True. My bad, and I regret it. Though, it's not as bad as you may think, the synergy certainly isn't there. |
I wasn't having a go - both skills are good! I've certainly picked some duff choices on my teams before now...
I wouldn't listen too much to the skills that were listed on TZR... having listened fairly recently to all of them, I found myself disagreeing with their skill picks pretty much every episode.
As for your skill choices... can't see much wrong with them (I'd tempted to turn down a double on a snotling, but if you're taking one, maybe prefer wrestle over block, since you'd never take it on an ogre... and if he makes a 3rd skill them jump up goes well with both his picks) |
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NAF name: sandwich |
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Nelphine
Joined: Apr 01, 2011
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Apr 22, 2013 - 18:07 |
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I have to say, wrestle or block isn't going to do anything offensively for a snotling; and defensively, well, how often to people pow when rolling 3 dice? (Hint: the answer is 'too often') So defensively it isn't that great either.
Instead, go for a game changing skill. Kick, Hail Mary Pass are the most obvious ones; Sure Hands can help a lot too. Leader is another good option.
He isn't going to last that long, so see if you can totally mess with your opponent's while he does last. |
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hale
Joined: Apr 05, 2008
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Apr 22, 2013 - 19:06 |
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on the wrestle snotling:
i've -3db crowd pushed many a ball carrier with my wrestle snots, or other times just being able to get a -2db pushback with him can change the game. and then theres the time you get a 1db on a ball carrier in a last turn with your wrestle snot who also has DT and prevents the touchdown that half. and yet another reason is if you're blessed enough to get another double for him with stripball now you can really get that ball loose before dodging in with BT ogres and snots to secure it.
i agree with sure hands and leader being good skills having got very good use out of those too. kick seems like a very wasted choice to me as crp ogres just dont seem to have a tangible defence plan - for only 30k theoretically it could still be worth the cost if you rolled enough doubles but other doubles are so much more valuable first imo, or perhaps put kick on the retarded snotling that has -ag,-av-,n and rolls a double
iirc the tacklezone idea of pro on a snotling was for landing rolls, then pickup rolls etc |
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