Meech
Joined: Sep 15, 2005
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 Posted:
May 03, 2006 - 22:45 |
 
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Mac I am moving in to your basement.
George: HA! Maybe in other countries, but the wealthy in the US have a lot of tax breaks. They do pay more in taxes, but not porportionately.
Pac: I have been a big fan of the US taking care of it's own problems, and only getting involved when something threatens the US (economy or military). Invading every country that starts with "I" isn't my idea of taking care of your own business. |
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Putting the FU in fumbbl since 9/2005 |
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pac
Joined: Oct 03, 2005
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| Posted:
May 03, 2006 - 22:58 |
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| Meech wrote: | | Pac: I have been a big fan of the US taking care of it's own problems, and only getting involved when something threatens the US (economy or military). Invading every country that starts with "I" isn't my idea of taking care of your own business. |
Sure, but isolationism (plus self-defence) is no solution either, especially as the US (in the form of its commercial arms) would continue to affect the rest of the world even if its government adopted a totally <i>laissez-faire</i> policy on the world stage. Unfortunately, responsibility, once adopted, is not easily given up in global politics. |
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Furious_George
Joined: Aug 13, 2005
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May 03, 2006 - 23:11 |
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Yeah, you cant go around selling guns and arming nations, and then walk away whistling claiming its your version of non-interference. Your either involved or your not, and I think weve established that burying your head in the sand and humming loudly isnt practical 
Whether America admits it or not(90% of our imports come from abroad eh?) they DO have a global agenda, fuel, rare minerals and other things are imported, to say nothing of their exports. How america portrays itself on the world stage is deeply relevant, and to take care of its own problems doesnt sit well here.
Besides, was vietnam entirely an american problem? |
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Wreckage
Joined: Aug 15, 2004
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| Posted:
May 03, 2006 - 23:11 |
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| Meech wrote: |
Can I blame my neighbor for me being not as wealthy?
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hmmh... i don't know how you act with the people next to you.. however i'd care much about my neighbour... the country i live in would do that always either... feeling responsible for your neigbours is a self-understanding thing... but it's true things are managed different in europe and us... i don't really wish to blame them... there are many us-citizens who also have a bad life and you should do as much against that as for your mexican neighbours....
but if you agree in a social system or not... immigration is more a us problem then a mexican one... so not to care about this country will just not help you ...but hey... do what you think |
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PistolPete
Joined: Feb 16, 2005
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| Posted:
May 03, 2006 - 23:27 |
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Hmmm, this as has been posted a very, and I mean VERY touchy subject.
From what I understand it is quite hard to get into the USA, or shall I say its a lot harder to get into the USA than it is in the UK.
The U.K, is currently being swamped by people coming in, and please don't take that as racist remark, because I'm not. But The UK is being swamped, so its difficult to sit on the sidelines, and say nothing when I feel that countries like the USA, could or should take more immigrants.
Of course there is the other side of the coin, that should say that maybe they should try and sort out there own countries, rather than try and go into some else’s.
As I've said, please don;t take these remarks as flaming, or racist. If anyone does apologies, but its how I feel and I am entitled to my own views. |
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shadow46x2
Joined: Nov 22, 2003
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| Posted:
May 03, 2006 - 23:35 |
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| PistolPete wrote: | Hmmm, this as has been posted a very, and I mean VERY touchy subject.
From what I understand it is quite hard to get into the USA, or shall I say its a lot harder to get into the USA than it is in the UK.
The U.K, is currently being swamped by people coming in, and please don't take that as racist remark, because I'm not. But The UK is being swamped, so its difficult to sit on the sidelines, and say nothing when I feel that countries like the USA, could or should take more immigrants.
Of course there is the other side of the coin, that should say that maybe they should try and sort out there own countries, rather than try and go into some else’s.
As I've said, please don;t take these remarks as flaming, or racist. If anyone does apologies, but its how I feel and I am entitled to my own views. |
heh...i don't think anyone at all is saying "no more immigrants, screw the lot of you"...in fact far from it....the complaint people have is no more *illegal* immigrants...people sneaking across the board, being shipped in through cargo containers, whatever....nobody(well i'm sure there are some morons who do) wants to eliminate the immigration policy completely...what people want is for it to be enforced, and to take action against people who choose to circumvent the proper channels, to get into the US...that's all
| Glimmervoid wrote: | hmmh... i don't know how you act with the people next to you.. however i'd care much about my neighbour... the country i live in would do that always either... feeling responsible for your neigbours is a self-understanding thing... but it's true things are managed different in europe and us... i don't really wish to blame them... there are many us-citizens who also have a bad life and you should do as much against that as for your mexican neighbours....
but if you agree in a social system or not... immigration is more a us problem then a mexican one... so not to care about this country will just not help you ...but hey... do what you think |
that's very admirable that you feel for your neighbors and wish to do what you can to help people, and i commend you for it...but if my neighbor doesn't make as much money as i do, i'm not going to start handing over part of my paycheck to him to help him out on a regular basis....every now and then, lending a hand to him to help out, sure...but not giving part of my hard earned money every paycheck, that's just crazytalk!...as for my mexican neighbors...sorry, but the government already takes enough out of my paychecks every month, i don't need to be donating more money to a "help mexico get better" when they have no desire to help *me* out...my country has enough issues of our own, i don't want my tax money being dished out to help other countries who have no intention of repaying the courtesy...
--j |
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| origami wrote: | | There is no god but Nuffle, and Shadow is his prophet. |
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Mnemon
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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| Posted:
May 03, 2006 - 23:49 |
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That's a flawed metaphor though. These people are in many ways delivering the resources (and that's not just "raw materials") that our societies are build upon. So this is much more then just a simple neighbour to neighbour relationship. Countries influence each other in much more profound ways then that.
Personally I think putting a tax on "global financial streams" and sharing that money across all the countries involved wouldn't be the worst idea. If we have a global economy, some form of global taxation makes sense. However, I also have that odd idea that the economy in general always should be primarily a tool that enables a society to function, rather then only being a purpose in itself - which is what I have the feeling is sadly becoming the predominant thing.
-Mnemon |
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Meech
Joined: Sep 15, 2005
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| Posted:
May 04, 2006 - 00:33 |
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My basic belief on the whole immigration thing is this. There is a very legal way to get in to this country. It is terribly unfair to the people that have come here legally and walked through the steps to get here to reward people that are in the US illegally by giving them citizenship. |
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Putting the FU in fumbbl since 9/2005 |
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slanter
Joined: Aug 02, 2004
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| Posted:
May 04, 2006 - 02:16 |
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| shadow46x2 wrote: |
that's very admirable that you feel for your neighbors and wish to do what you can to help people, and i commend you for it...but if my neighbor doesn't make as much money as i do, i'm not going to start handing over part of my paycheck to him to help him out on a regular basis....every now and then, lending a hand to him to help out, sure...but not giving part of my hard earned money every paycheck, that's just crazytalk!...as for my mexican neighbors...sorry, but the government already takes enough out of my paychecks every month, i don't need to be donating more money to a "help mexico get better" when they have no desire to help *me* out...my country has enough issues of our own, i don't want my tax money being dished out to help other countries who have no intention of repaying the courtesy...
--j |
The whole "helping my neighbour" = "crazytalk" mindset is what makes discussions in the US so beutifully simple and sometimes scary 
I would gladly invite you to Sweden so you could see the effect of letting "crazytalkers" rule for +70 of the last 100 years!
Would you rather pay the worlds highest taxes or be surrounded by homeless/desperate/criminal/mental people? 
Back to the subject. I think there is a fundamental difference between US and EU immigration problems. Mainly because their view on society differs!
Many EU countries have a focus on social security and employment agreements taking away the worries of injuries and unemployment (which are thought to strike everyone with similar odds). Society is a kind of flock where everyone acknowlages that some may cost more than they contriubute. It's a system where one is not forced to work hard but where many feel safe.
In the US on the other hand society is a group of individuals coexcisting under mutually benefitiall circumstances (laws). A working individual will most likely generate more (both through taxes and improving the society by working) than they can "leech" from the system. Government giving away stuff for free is kept at a low level as this would take a part of "my hard earned money".
An EU country like Sweden will on average lose money with immigration because the unemployment among immigrants is high. It becomes an economical problem. In the US on the other hand the average immigrant will help make the United States, if not a better than at least, a richer place (networthwise). Immigration is more of a burocratic and law enforcement problem.
Extremely powerfull unions(protective) +
Steep progressive taxation (30% + 0-50%) +
25% VAT +
social security =
Unemployed fumbbler ftw! (not there yet, still studying )
I actually consider immigrating the US or Canada when finished  |
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destroyer_dabes
Joined: Jan 27, 2006
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May 04, 2006 - 02:50 |
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not to continue off topic, but NAFTA does as much to hurt america as canada or mexico. Mexico can dump cheap steel into America and kill off our own industry. Mexico is home to many car manufactoring plants depriving jobs from Americans. Canadian hogs have killed the American production through dumping. Its a double edged sword, open markets hurts and helps everyone equally. |
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Macavity
Joined: Nov 23, 2004
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| Posted:
May 05, 2006 - 19:30 |
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You forgot the word SHOULD in that last sentence, Dabes Bush's solution to in-quities seems to be, "stop the ones that hurt the U.
S." |
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When I became a man I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up. -C.S. Lewis |
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CorporateSlave3
Joined: Feb 07, 2004
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| Posted:
May 05, 2006 - 20:19 |
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| Meech wrote: | | My basic belief on the whole immigration thing is this. There is a very legal way to get in to this country. It is terribly unfair to the people that have come here legally and walked through the steps to get here to reward people that are in the US illegally by giving them citizenship. |
Or, I would say, at least make sure all the people who went through the legal channels get preference, and grant them all their desired greencards and/or citizenships before the undocumented immigrants get theirs.
Of course, there is still the issue of all those on Visa waiting lists, patiently waiting their turn to come here. I'd hate to see them get skipped over in favor of those who decided to cut the line.
I'm still having trouble figuring out exactly where I stand on this... |
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Mnemon
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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| Posted:
May 09, 2006 - 10:22 |
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Thought a while whether to post this or not, but I guess I just have to hope it's not taken the wrong way.
If there is an issue with "illegal" immigrants a solution never only can be to try to solve the problem by focusing on them/complaining about them doing something unfair/asking for harsher laws or harsher law enactment (which I think is what politicians would do these days).
If people are taking their chances and immigrate illegally there is a way for them to survive and there are people in the host country that take advantage of them. The responsibility is not just on the side of those immigrating. If there is a demand for these people, that is if they can find some sort of employment or financial support, they will take it - no matter how harsh the laws are.
That is, there is a responsibility on the "host" society as well - someone has to employ them, and someone has to use the services of the companies that employ them (likely because those are cheaper then others). This even holds true for drug related business. So just asking those that immigrate by bypassing the formal and legal ways to act moral and asking them to play by the rules, or take responsibility or be fair is one-sided. If the situation bothers you, attack the problem on both sides - blame those that gain an advantage by employing illegals, work on and invest money in preventing drug usage, etc. If you feel that illegal immigrants are a problem, investigate some about the companies that you spend your money on - who do they employ?
I am trying to not be too opinionated about that however as - again - I am not a US citizen, nor do I live there. Just some general comments that pretty much apply to a lot of subjects and different countries.
Me being an idealist (and supporting the human rights declaration [re-read it once in a while and compared to our reality]) the world I'd like to see would guarantee anyone food, very basic shelter, and free healthcare - world wide - which I think we easily could afford. Anyone wanting more then the absolute basics still would need to find work though. As I said someplace else, I can't consider the economy as anything else then a tool for social conduct rather then a means in itself.
-Mnemon |
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