Kinks
Joined: Feb 28, 2007
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 Posted:
Jul 23, 2011 - 00:32 |
 
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Sorry harvestmouse, just trying to to get a definitive answer on what the admins consider to be a viable tactic (which I thought was the topic). |
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Better lucky than good |
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SillySod
Joined: Oct 10, 2006
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Jul 23, 2011 - 00:32 |
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| Kinks wrote: | | Competitive in what way? |
Competitive in the eyes of blinkered BB players. Its a shame that Franks unusual and inovative strategy was misunderstood... but a travesty that such an interesting and alternative concept was stomped on so harshly.
(I love you harvestmouse but I think you, the collective admins, got this one wrong, and keep getting it wrong. FUMBBLs stance on "competitive" gameplay is starting to feel like the unthinking devotion Americans have to free speech  ) |
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Putting the "eh?" back into Sexeh.
"There are those to whom knowledge is a shield. There are those to whom it is a weapon. Neither view is balanced."
Last edited by SillySod on %b %23, %2011 - %00:%Jul; edited 1 time in total |
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Wreckage
Joined: Aug 15, 2004
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Jul 23, 2011 - 00:32 |
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ok I haven't read all posts but Frankenstein since you are here and already mentioned that you considerd your tactic a good idea and I completely see that for the most part:
Corner all players and wait the half out then play the offense sounds pretty good to me on the paper if the opponent has a 40%+ ko chance per block.
What I don't understand is how it is helpfull to allow the opponent to crowd your players and sourround them in a corner with no escape or serious attemt to solve the situation... also I wonder if a good player could not be secured better behind weaker players instead of doding his way on the ground.
My general thinking is just this: If a player gets in an opponents tacklezone of a regular player and gets knocked down from there he will be stilil just as good off as when I knock myself out.
It's of course different if a claw pomber is involved
I must admit that i didnt check the game and the player stats in detail and just saw a fast short version of the game so apologies if i overlook something but these are the questions that would come to my mind. |
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EvolveToAnarchism
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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Jul 23, 2011 - 00:35 |
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Please keep it away from the specific Frankenstein situation. Deal with the tactic not the specific incident please. I'd hate to see a fruitful discussion quashed because some people take things too personally.
Remember discussion is good for the community. |
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Ignorance is Strength quis custodiet ipsos custodes As Always, Evolve To Anarchism
Last edited by EvolveToAnarchism on %b %23, %2011 - %00:%Jul; edited 1 time in total |
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paulhicks
Joined: Jul 19, 2004
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Jul 23, 2011 - 00:36 |
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maybe for the sake of fumbbl we should all step away from this topic for a day or two (never thought id say that) and return to it in a few days. i'm the last person to recomend forum locking but maybe a few days thinking time and pure playing the game will do us all good. not censorship... mearly thinking time.
Today has been a day full of bullshit. Lets all take some time to remember that bullshit tastes the worst when fresh (said as one of this sites most constant complainers against forum locking).
Chill, perspective, start again IF still relevant. |
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Spelling, grammer and sense are for noobs! |
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mattwakeman
Joined: Feb 15, 2005
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Jul 23, 2011 - 00:47 |
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CLPOMB is overpowered which leads to tactics such as Frankensteins when he was trying to protect team for the first drive but then didn't really come out to play when things went wrong after the blitz. According to one interpretation of the rules here then the admin decision is justified but the larger problem is that a mechanism within the rules is so powerful that it is bordering on being unstoppable. Unless the root cause of this problem is addressed and dealt with then I don't see why lying down or trying to simply survive against a team designed to obliterate should be punished in the way that it has.
As far as I can see, there are no limits in anti-clpomb tactics. If you are making a team like that I don't see how you can complain if teams that simply cannot stand toe-to-toe with you do not do so. Looked at it from one perspective the team killer is just as anti-competitive as anything that Frankenstein tried to do. Both are boring and unfun. |
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Wreckage
Joined: Aug 15, 2004
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| Posted:
Jul 23, 2011 - 00:48 |
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| EvolveToAnarchism wrote: | Please keep it away from the specific Frankenstein situation. Deal with the tactic not the specific incident please. I'd hate to see a fruitful discussion quashed because some people take things too personally.
Remember discussion is good for the community. |
I'm confused. How am I supposed to ask Frankenstein a quesiton about his competent opinion without mentioning his play style?
Seems i have to read everything after all |
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Juff
Joined: May 24, 2006
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Jul 23, 2011 - 00:48 |
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Edit: Veiled topic confuses Juff. |
Last edited by Juff on %b %23, %2011 - %01:%Jul; edited 1 time in total |
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Frankenstein
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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Jul 23, 2011 - 01:03 |
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| Wreckage wrote: | Corner all players and wait the half out then play the offense sounds pretty good to me on the paper if the opponent has a 40%+ ko chance per block.
What I don't understand is how it is helpfull to allow the opponent to crowd your players and sourround them in a corner with no escape or serious attemt to solve the situation... also I wonder if a good player could not be secured better behind weaker players instead of doding his way on the ground. |
I will just address this shortly as it has been addressed to me personally: If you study the replay, you will see that my best player on the pitch was actually perfectly protected in the corner as he was surrounded by 3 prone players.
I actually was kind of proud to accomplish that 
Besides, only 1 player got surfed while the rest was prone and save (as save as you can get against clawpomb, at least).
What really put the rug out from under my feet was the fact that Azure didn't bother to stall and got that Blitz! while I had no proper player against his blodging centaurs while his chaos dwarfs negated my 3 dodge-rotters.
Add this to the fact that Azure is way superior than the CR might suggest while I was tired and exhausted from work and have turned into an average casual player during the last years. |
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SillySod
Joined: Oct 10, 2006
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Jul 23, 2011 - 01:06 |
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| EvolveToAnarchism wrote: | Please keep it away from the specific Frankenstein situation. Deal with the tactic not the specific incident please. I'd hate to see a fruitful discussion quashed because some people take things too personally.
Remember discussion is good for the community. |
If you want me to paraphrase what I wrote above...
There are at least two allegedly "questionable" tactics that can be employed:
1) attempting to trip or injure your own players - this is a great tactic that I've been using for a few years now. I frequently use it in tabletop tournaments where the resurection format ensures that the only objective is to win the current game. This is useful against a variety of opponents rather than just clawpomb, I often suicide-dodge linemen away from mummies to avoid MB
2) deliberately playing a weak defence - this tactic has been around since the dawn of time. I dont use it often myself but I do know a swathe of good players who love to employ this dirty little trick. Mostly it is used to encourage a misplay but it has some strategic value too. The common version of this trick involves mounting a fake defence to help entice the misplay but it works perfectly well without the charade.
Both tactics are excellent when employed in the correct situtaion. Knowing exactly when that situation is and how to apply the tactic to part of a larger strategy is part of being a good bloodbowl coach - 99% of everyone will get it at least slightly wrong most of the time. I'm honestly suprised that the first tactic even needs explaining although I can see why the second tactic is non-obvious. |
_________________
Putting the "eh?" back into Sexeh.
"There are those to whom knowledge is a shield. There are those to whom it is a weapon. Neither view is balanced." |
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Fela
Joined: Dec 27, 2004
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Jul 23, 2011 - 01:11 |
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My answer on that is pretty simple: As long as PO is not houseruled out of the current ruleset here on Fumbbl, i will deem ANY course of action - including concessions or the 1st drive avoidance - a viable anti PoMb strategy and will also accept any strategy used vs. my teams that employ the broken skill.
Most times there won't be a conflict with other houserules anyway, but if there is, so what?
If rules are not consistent they beg for personal adaption. |
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Wreckage
Joined: Aug 15, 2004
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Jul 23, 2011 - 01:33 |
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If I'm dealing with a real carnage dealer to attempt a complete retreat approach might be a really good solution.
Just a couple of things need to be considerd: The frontline will probably fall victim.
1. Do I have the ressources to replace the players there?
2. My players don't necessarly have to be in a corner but just outside of blitzing range like I'd set them up against Khemri aswell... then I could remove them more flexibly to one side ideally avoid a blitz in turn 2.
3. I'f I play my kicking half too defensive (start by cornering everyone)I risk that my opponent comes after me with little space to manuver. I also set a signal that i won't fight him what will likely make him more rutheless and put my players at unneccesary risk.
4. I can ideally limit the blocks to one blitz per turn.
5.If the opponent has a lot of guard I just set every player two squares apart.
6. A lot of blocks might increase my risk of carnage rather then reduce it. Of course if i want to have my players lie down, letting an opponent without bash skills do the job should just play in my hands. I don't think allowing crowdpushes are a good idea because I'm skipping out on the armor roll giving so high chances for soemthing to happen that it seems highly unlikely to me that the odds for the probability for (successfull block*armor roll* injury roll) could be higher even with a claw pomber.
7. One of the best strategies if the player amount is high enough is to offer small tokens: To put irrelevant players in critical positions and to force the opponent to remove them.
8- Such a strategy can be used for instance to circle around the opponent with rest of the team and get behind him. This way your own team won't be in the way if the opponent attempts to score.
9. Just one player in his range to pressur him to move his entire team out of your range to protect and cover the flanks of his own ballcarrier.
10. Fight back if the oppoennt comes too close. Many coaches might hesitate to approach a non fighting opponent when he is just threatening enough. If you just retreat and retreat he won't have any reason not to just hit you hard.
11. You can always protect your most valuable players by getting them banned via fouling but consider carefully the benefit in the tourntime and the harm for the game.
12. If your opponent has only a couple of clawpombers, the best answer is to take them out yourself. Best are of course own clawpombers but if not available for a lying poer a foul might just do the trick. On preference also combined with stragey Nr.11.
13. The further the game progresses the less relevant it gets if you lose players. (At least for the game you are in.) Don't worry about approaching clawpombs in the late phase if you can tie them up and don't mind too much the sacrifize.
Be aware that any shot you give your opponent to clawpomb you may cost you the game. The problem with many of my suggestions is that you will allow him to clawpomb someone in the end. The other side is that so far I haven't heard of any sufficient tactic to perfectly steal this chance from him. No matter where you go he can always come after you. So there are a lot of good reasons to just set up like any other day. |
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JimmyFantastic
Joined: Feb 06, 2007
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Jul 23, 2011 - 01:48 |
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Well I am late to the whole Frankenstein party but I have to say that my gameplan for the Crown of Sand were I to have been drawn vs RandomOracle or Studman was similar to the tactics he used and find the whole episode somewhat disturbing. |
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Pull down the veil - actively bad for the hobby! |
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Timlagor
Joined: Feb 13, 2009
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| Posted:
Jul 23, 2011 - 03:13 |
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The only problem I have with the admins decision re Frankenstein is that they won't talk about it (he certanly overreacted).
It is absolutely pertinent to this question. It seems clear he did think he was trying to win (though I'm pretty sure being surfed is worse than getting knocked over by anyone <maths someone> let alone getting blocked).
I'm also pretty sure that simply dodging clear is the best safety option: 8 blitzes+3LOS is going to be less than 11 POWs let alone casualties (though that assumes the dodges are successful).
So.. I think I draw the line at setting your players up to be surfed.
I also think that Frankenstein's strategy was probably really really bad as it also sets you up for an entire half of gang-fouling. (gang-fouls are worth it in cas-terms unless you are using someone noticably better than the target ..their big drawback is positional but this isn't an issue once your opponent has rolled over) ..interesting point about blocking the assists on the foul with more prone players. Most coaches are planning to stall their drive with these teams before they even activate anyway.
Just goes to show that CPOMBers need DP too  |
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Time for a new .sig |
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Markusen
Joined: Jan 23, 2005
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Jul 23, 2011 - 06:03 |
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There are only some skill helping against Cpombs and some of them are not very popular (and honestly not worth their 20TV compared to other 20k skills):
- Block/Wrestle
- Dodge (can be destroyed by Tackle)
- Fend
- Foul Appearence (can be Re-Rolled)
- Thick Skull
Basically that is all you can give a player to protect him by skills/traits.
FA and TS are rarely seen, unless they are naturally given to a player. Fend is also not very popular, but has it's use. Looks like a big list.
1st problem of this list: a player will need at least one trait to gather all or cannot get em because of the lack of mutating.
2nd problem: gather all skills on a player and he is still doomed facing a cl/mb. The odds are still critical to get smashed.
FA in LRB4 was quite nice, but now it became a dead skill, splitted into two crappy-stand-alone-skills.
I have very very rarely seen Thick Skull taken on a skill up. At least it got an little upgrade from LRB4 times - still not popular (it does not HURT). It is by far not a first, second or third skill on a youngster. Nevertheless, I might try it out on some 76+ players.
BL (Wr)/Do are your 2nd best weapon vs cpomb, Fend seems to be the 3rd best way - you just have to be on he pitch after the Cl/MB rolls have come over you (nearly 70% you stay prone or stunned). 4th best skill against imo is FA, which cancles out the block itself by 16,7% chance (sounds pretty interesting, heh?). Thick Skull gives you roughly 8% more to be on the pitch after a successful block and is on last place in my list here.
Woot? Forgot something? Oh, yes! The best "skill" vs cpomb:
L U C K ! ! !!
Be as lucky as you can be! Pray for double skulls on cpomb-attacks, make voodoo rituals to only suffer 2+4 rolls on your AV rolls!
Another thing:
I read somewhere here that
a) Claw got nerfed and
b) MB is the same as before
To a): indeed, the skill itself has been nerfed (thx to that).
BUT (!) Now even CD-Blocker can get it AND (!) 4 races can get it as a common skill roll, which ended up into massive Claw - Claw - Claw - Claw - Claw - ... Teams. Also it is still BY FAR the best mutation skill (+2 TV for Claw or +2 TV for Big Hand... hm...).
Basically that change is the end for all Orcs, Dwarves, Lizards (imho).
It hasn't shown yet, true. Dwarves seem to stand it quite well by now. But I predict that simply more and more coaches will play cpombs and playing less there other teams. But that is something placed wrong in that thread... .
To b): MB does has changed in combination with Claw!
Now you get another +1 mod on AV stackable with Claw.
To sum up:
Play as broken as you can vs the most broken skill compo!
EVERY tactic should be valid, honestly.
The rulebook does no say:
- Do not MinMax
- Don't take powerskills by odds only
and it also does NOT say:
- Play for the ball at all times
- Don't run away instead of facing your opponents killer player every turn
- You have to stand up a prone player if possible
- Do not make senceless dodges, GFI, Leaps, or whatever
- etc (be creative to not get blocked!)
The rules do not help you, so, help yourself getting out of the rule mess. My two cents. |
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