keggiemckill
Joined: Oct 07, 2004
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 Posted:
Mar 20, 2014 - 08:12 |
 
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| MattDakka wrote: | I generally prefer Wrestle on Slann linemen, but I will take Block if:
1) I need a lineman to blitz and hurt (I don't use Blitzers because they are overpriced and lack Block: although a pomb Blitzer is great, to skill him in the Box is quite hard, until that he's a big TV bloat);
2) I rolled a double, and I took either Guard or Mighty Blow.
In my opinion two Block linemen should be ok (on the LOS with the Kroxigor when receiving), the rest of the linemen should have Wrestle, unless the condition 2) occurs. |
I just don't get why a Blitzer is over priced. A Slann Blitzer equivalent to a 2 skilled Wardancer is less TV.
Slann Blitzer is MA7, ST3, AG3, AV 8, JU, Long Legs, Diving Tackle, Leap, Block, Dodge =150 TV
WE Wardancer is MA8, ST3, AG4, AV 7 Block, Dodge, Leap. JU, Diving Tackle = 160TV
Trade the MA for AV and the only stat diff is an AG. But Long Legs helps them leap the same (3+.) The cost is the same when worked out. Is the only reason you think they are overpriced is because you don't get Block and Dodge to start with? Slann get 4 Blitzers when a WE team gets 2 Dancers. With some work the Slann team can be exceptional and very unique. Imagine having 4 Wardancers on a WE team. Would you turn that down? They are not over priced at all. |
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SvenS
Joined: Jul 07, 2007
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Mar 20, 2014 - 08:19 |
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| PainState wrote: | | Kam wrote: |
So... are slanns a team for me?  |
Sadly, no.
Slann have the same issue Humans have in Ranked.
Once they get developed Elfs will not play against them. The tweener races avoid you and you are only left to play against bashers.
Inless you have a famous team or some such and then 2 out of 10 matches you will get a charity match and some elf or tweener will say to hell with it and play against you. |
Really?
Or are you just stating how/why you avoid frogs? :p
Havent had much trouble finding games with slann myself. |
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RC
Joined: Sep 22, 2005
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| Posted:
Mar 20, 2014 - 08:25 |
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When you only have 3 players left on the pitch vs the 11 man blodging woodies you will be glad that you gave the lino wrestle  At least now you can ty and sack the carrier. |
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keggiemckill
Joined: Oct 07, 2004
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Mar 20, 2014 - 08:32 |
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Another comparison would be a DE Blitzer equivalent to a Slann Blitzer.
DE Blitzer MA7,ST3, AG4, AV8 Block, with JU, Leap and Diving Tackle Would cost 160TV when a Slann Blitzer just needing Block would just be 130TV.
A Human Blitzer, MA7,ST3, AG3, AV8 Block, with JU, Leap and Diving Tackle would be the cost of 180TV as all 3 are double rolls. Adding a mutation on a Human Blitzer (Long Legs) would put the cost of an equivalent at 210TV.
Again after put into a far fetched perspective like those above scenarios the thought of them being over priced is untrue. |
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"Keggie is the guy with the bleach blond hair that gives answers nobody else would think of."
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Ziggyny
Joined: Mar 20, 2013
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| Posted:
Mar 20, 2014 - 08:33 |
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| keggiemckill wrote: | | MattDakka wrote: | I generally prefer Wrestle on Slann linemen, but I will take Block if:
1) I need a lineman to blitz and hurt (I don't use Blitzers because they are overpriced and lack Block: although a pomb Blitzer is great, to skill him in the Box is quite hard, until that he's a big TV bloat);
2) I rolled a double, and I took either Guard or Mighty Blow.
In my opinion two Block linemen should be ok (on the LOS with the Kroxigor when receiving), the rest of the linemen should have Wrestle, unless the condition 2) occurs. |
I just don't get why a Blitzer is over priced. A Slann Blitzer equivalent to a 2 skilled Wardancer is less TV.
Slann Blitzer is MA7, ST3, AG3, AV 8, JU, Long Legs, Diving Tackle, Leap, Block, Dodge =150 TV
WE Wardancer is MA8, ST3, AG4, AV 7 Block, Dodge, Leap. JU, Diving Tackle = 160TV
Trade the MA for AV and the only stat diff is an AG. But Long Legs helps them leap the same (3+.) The cost is the same when worked out. Is the only reason you think they are overpriced is because you don't get Block and Dodge to start with? Slann get 4 Blitzers when a WE team gets 2 Dancers. With some work the Slann team can be exceptional and very unique. Imagine having 4 Wardancers on a WE team. Would you turn that down? They are not over priced at all. |
What a crazy comparison. You've forced the wardancer to take two skills they aren't likely to take first and you're basically ignoring what +AG does for dodging and handling the ball.
If you compare your blitzer with a wardancer who has tackle and strip ball and actually think about what that 4th agility does for you... I don't think there's any question which one you should take. |
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keggiemckill
Joined: Oct 07, 2004
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Mar 20, 2014 - 08:41 |
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I understand that. I was trying to compare cost equivalent and not which is better. |
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"Keggie is the guy with the bleach blond hair that gives answers nobody else would think of."
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Rabe
Joined: Jun 06, 2009
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Mar 20, 2014 - 09:52 |
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And don't forget they got Strength AND Agility access.
They don't rely on doubles at all and start with a lot of (later) useful skills. The only issue really is skilling them. Did I say "only"? Well, the issue is skilling them (and keeping them alive and healthy). As with the comparison to High Elf/Pro Elf catchers (who have the greatest potential), Wardancers are just too awesome out of the box.
One AG less doesn't hurt them too much at doing their job - but at skilling them. |
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MattDakka
Joined: Oct 09, 2007
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Mar 20, 2014 - 14:38 |
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If the Slann Blitzers had Block instead of Diving Tackle they would be quite decent (as Blitzers) and they would be easier to skill (either Blodge or Block, Mighty Blow at 6 SPPs would be great).
When I buy a Blitzer, I want Block on him, a skill useful every turn, even in my opponent's turn, not a more situational skill as Diving Tackle.
The comparison between Slann Blitzer and Wardancer is ridicolous, because:
while leaping with AG 4 is like leaping with AG 3 and Very Long Legs, AG 4 is way better for ball handling, dodging, passing, catching, moreover skilling a Wardancer is way easier than skilling a Slann Blitzer (a Wardancer can reliably blitz thanks to Block, and reliably score thanks to Dodge and AG 4), and if he dies you can buy another one with Blodge out of the box, saving you a lot of time.
A player with MA 8 coupled with AG 4 and Blodge can make wonders and it's an excellent base for +stats, while a Blockless player (blitzer-type) MA 7 coupled with AG 3 and a bad set of starting skills is awful.
I tried to include a Slann Blitzer in my Slann team, and I found out that I rarely used him as I should (i.e as a Blitzer) for the simple reason he has no Block, so I fired him. |
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PainState
Joined: Apr 04, 2007
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Mar 20, 2014 - 16:08 |
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The main issue with slann and their blitzers for me comes down to this.
The entire slann roster comes with no core skills. Even their catchers are void of dodge or block.
So you are now left with a roster that takes a lot of time to get the core skills up and running before you can even consider branching out.
Lets look at the Blitzers first and we are building their skill tree out to 76+SPP (5 skills) and we will have all 4.
You need block and most would say dodge, so there are 2 of your 5 skills. Now Sidestep or standfirm is looking nice to couple with DT, so we are at 3 skills. At this point you then have 2 skills that you can branch out on. Go with some MB/G/PO/T/F/Gr/D...looks like a lot of skills you can choose to flesh out your hitter and you only get 2 of them.
Well I want to go more defensive/sweeper type. Ok, well maybe replace Block with Wrestle. But now we need to choose from this list and you only get 2. T/F/SB/SH/SF/Daunt.
So you need to get to 31+SPP just to get what most coaches would call the core skills. Block/Dodge/Sidestep or Stand Firm. Then you have to get all 4 of them to 31+SPP. Then what happens if you roll a +Stat? You have to take it right? Pushes back the core skill plan to 51+ SPP and denies you one of your two expansion skills to flesh him out and make him really effective at his core purpose.
Now lets look at the catchers.
Insert Catcher for Blitzers in the above 3 paragraphs becasue they have the exact same dillema. It takes their first 2 skill choices just to get to blodge and they are left with 3 expansion skill slots.
Dude, you are forgetting the lino's. That is right because slann are spending so much time developing Blitzers and Catchers where do I find the time. Slann lino are great for versatility. So you want at a minnum wrestle to couple with their jumping. Now that is fine and all. Get them to 6SPP and then sit on it. Never attempt to skill them up. BUT what happens, since you have 4-6 of them. That two of those buggers rolls +AG?
Now all of sudden you have 2 more players that you want to get atleast to Wrestle/Tackle or some combo. Even more time it is seems on developing players.
It takes so much time to develop the Slann roster which at the end of the day is the real dillema for them and why some coaches advocate the no blitzer plan on building or the Blitzer with one or two catcher ball handlers. They are attempting to cut down on the time aspect of skilling them up by only taking 4-5 of the positionals instead of all 8.
And of course there is no need to talk about NUFFLE and CAS and so forth. We know what that does to team building.
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Side note to a previous entry.
Slann Blitzers are more like Vampires in the sense they have G/A/S access but NO CORE SKILLS. Now obviously the Vamp has a superior stat line which helps him get by BUT the dillema is the same even for a vamp. It takes 2 or 3 skills of your 5 just to get him up and running in good order. |
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Craftnburn
Joined: Jul 29, 2005
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Mar 20, 2014 - 16:12 |
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Ok, I've played a fair amount of Slann, (although my Box record is sketchy since it's just simply a very bad environment for them, and I started playing Slann there so harsh on the job learning) so I'll offer my thoughts.
I play my Slann much the same way I play one of my more accomplished HE teams. Quick Scoring passing offense, and Ball Hawking (read Cage leaping) Defense. Given that strategy, Wrestle, Strip Ball, and Tackle (with 1 Leader) on Linefrogs are my way to go. As stated earlier, if I roll a doubles for Guard, I drop that line and take Block (unless they already have Wrestle and I already have a Leader, then I cry )
Originally I didn't want Blitzers because I felt they were overpriced. Since building an L team using them I've found they actually can be quite good, BUT they ARE in fact overpriced, albeit not by much. 100K vs 110K would be just about right and solve a lot of issues with the team really.
The Blitzers I build as killers/straight Sackers (Block, MB, Tackle, PO), but I'm not afraid to send them deep as receivers on offense either (stock up on RRs).
The biggest disadvantage of the whole team is simply they play "like Elves" but don't have the AG for it, which means lots of RRs and still lots of fails. (Sure Feet NEEDs to RR failed Leaps as well as GFIs!)
Slann are a lucker's dream! |
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Garion
Joined: Aug 19, 2009
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Mar 20, 2014 - 16:24 |
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| Craftnburn wrote: | Sure Feet NEEDs to RR failed Leaps as well as GFIs!
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have to disagree there. there shouldn't be a skill rr for leaps, being able to leap is already incredibly powerful. Having skill rrs would be far too much. Using Leap is all about planning when to use it so you have your rr on hand for that roll. |
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MattDakka
Joined: Oct 09, 2007
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Mar 20, 2014 - 16:58 |
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| Garion wrote: |
Using Leap is all about planning when to use it so you have your rr on hand for that roll. |
If we talk about Leap used by Elves (all team has ag 4 and good core skills, everybody can dodge at 2+), I agree with you, but if we talk about Leap and Slann (most players are ag 3 and no core skills from the start, so they burn rerolls for even the most basic actions such as blocking/blitzing/dodging) then I agree that there should be a skill to reroll Leap (maybe Jump Up, or Very Long Legs allowing to reroll a Leap action once per turn, to prevent abuse).
Slann are an example of good team concept but awful roster design. |
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happygrue
Joined: Oct 15, 2010
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Mar 20, 2014 - 18:12 |
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It's a terrible roster design if the goal is a Tier 1 team. Since the goal was (As I understand it) a Tier 2 team, I think it's actually one of the more successful roster designs of the CRP era. How many teams actually have interesting choices you can make in the roster? Mostly the choice of which players you have boils down to "big guy, or not big guy" for a lot of races. This roster has multiple winning rosters and is challenging and fun to play. Do I wish Blitzers cost 100K instead of 110K? I sure do! Are they effing hard to rebuild at higher TV? Well, yeah but they are also a breath of fresh air that really shakes up matches against a wide range of teams without being gamebreakingly good. |
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MattDakka
Joined: Oct 09, 2007
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Mar 20, 2014 - 18:21 |
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According to Galak they are a tier 1.5 team, like Pact.
Vampires are tier 2, Goblins Halflings and Ogres tier 3.
The problem is that the not gamebreakingly good teams are frustrating to play against the good teams, so you rarely see people playing them, especially in bashy environments. |
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happygrue
Joined: Oct 15, 2010
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Mar 20, 2014 - 18:50 |
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Of all the CRP rosters that range from "needs a tweak" to "crap", I don't feel the need to argue about this one. They don't get played much and they can be frustrating, but the are fun if you enjoy a challenge. I would like it if diving catch were better or if the blitzers were a bit cheaper. But somehow working Pact into this conversation about rosters while bashing the Slann roster makes me suddenly remember that I have to go wax my cat. Gotta run! |
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