Strider84
Joined: Jun 03, 2009
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 Posted:
Oct 12, 2012 - 15:40 |
 
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Underworlder
Joined: Sep 17, 2012
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Oct 12, 2012 - 16:11 |
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| Dan-Da-Man wrote: | | Underworlder wrote: |
The turnover ends your action, thus I think you should be able to feed...
But I understand how you read the rules, I can accept it |
No if you fail an action your turn ends there and then, so a tip for you if you want to pick the ball up make sure you move a thrall next to that ball as a failed pick up while suffering blood lust means bye bye vamp.
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Exactly. I ended my action failing to pick up the ball, with a thrall near me, and the vamps was sent out
I do not agree with this interpretation of the rule, but it look like it's an interpretation and not a client bug |
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uuni
Joined: Mar 12, 2010
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Oct 12, 2012 - 16:12 |
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I made a short research into the case law of BB (TFF...  ) in this matter.
I understand the question situation to be:
1) Vampire declares a Move, Pass, Hand-off, Blitz or Foul Action or changes their Action to Move Action from Block Action after following.
2) The Vampire fails Blood Lust roll.
3) Vampire moves and attempts a Pick Up roll and fails that, triggering a turnover.
Q: Can Vampire bite a thrall during the resolving the fallout of the turnover?
I propose the answer to the Q is no.
Related to this question, in talkfantasyfootball.org it has been discussed, whether a Vampire can use Hypnotic Gaze skill after failing a Tentacles escape roll. The resolution was that it cannot use, as Hypnotic Gaze is not included in the mandatory things to be resolved in the turnover aftermath in p 7. Consequently it was found that the Vampire in that situation cannot bite a Thrall and is forced to leave to reserves.
As the failing of a pick up is a turnover per p7, and it has been found that the aftermath of a turnover does not allow for Hypnotic Gaze and it has been established that biting a Thrall happens always after the spot that allows Hypnotic Gaze, it is deduced that turnover does not allow biting a thrall and the Blood Lust negaskill specifies that the Vampire then goes to reserves as per rules.
As per these findings I propose the Vampire is not given opportunity to feed and goes to reserves. |
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Kalimar
Joined: Sep 22, 2006
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Oct 12, 2012 - 16:24 |
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Which is how we discussed it in the implementation phase... |
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Underworlder
Joined: Sep 17, 2012
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Oct 12, 2012 - 21:38 |
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I understand your reading
I do not agree, but I can easly accept to play this way
Thanks! |
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Nelphine
Joined: Apr 01, 2011
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Oct 13, 2012 - 00:47 |
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So I think the biggest problem case is a failed pick up (since anything that causes a vampire to fall prone prevents feeding, and feeding happens before the pass roll, and I think those are the only other scenarios where the vampires own action causes a turnover).
A pick up happens in the middle of an action.
A failed pick up results in a turnover.
"Either way, at the END of the declared Action,..., the vampire must feed." (I have emphasized what I think is the important part of that sentence for the failed pick up scenario).
"A coach that suffers a turnover is not allowed to take any further Actions that turn, and any Action being taken ends immediately even if it was only partially completed."
So, to recap:
An action is declared that involves movement. Bloodlust is failed. Vampire continues with the action declared. As part of this action the Vampire moves, and attempts a pick up. The pick up is failed. The declared action ends. Since bloodlust failed, and the declared action has ended, the vampire must now feed. As a turnover has occured, the vampires turn ends.
The vampire could not move to another square to feed; but if there was a thrall adjacent to the ball when the vampire attempted to pick it up, it seems that the rules allow the vampire a chance to feed to prevent being sent off.
The OP seems to be saying that this chance to feed, IF a thrall is adjacent at the time of the failed pickup, is not being given by the client.
I haven't actually tested any of this, but if the client handles things properly (feeding before the pass or hand off etc), then there shouldn't be any other cases of this bug.
Interestingly, this means that if you declared a pass, and failed bloodlust, and ended your move (and attempted to pass) without a thrall adjacent, then the vampire would fail to feed, and leave the pitch, having the ball bounce from his square, without ever getting to initiate the pass sequence. |
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Overhamsteren
Joined: May 27, 2006
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Oct 13, 2012 - 00:51 |
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| uuni wrote: | | As the failing of a pick up is a turnover per p7, and it has been found that the aftermath of a turnover does not allow for Hypnotic Gaze and it has been established that biting a Thrall happens always after the spot that allows Hypnotic Gaze, it is deduced that turnover does not allow biting a thrall and the Blood Lust negaskill specifies that the Vampire then goes to reserves as per rules. |
By that logic sending off the vampire isn't part of the turnover procedure either so he should get to stay on the pitch without biting.
As you might guess I think he should get to bite. |
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Like a Tiger Defying the Laws of Gravity
Thanks to the BBRC for all the great work you did. |
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Nelphine
Joined: Apr 01, 2011
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Oct 13, 2012 - 00:58 |
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Having now uuni's interpretation, I think I agree that my interpretation of 'end' is incorrect in this case.
However, I think that if you follow uuni's interpretation, then Bloodlust has become part of the declared action, and must be done at a particular time. However, in the case of a failed pick up, the entire action is ended prematurely, even if 'partially completed', and in this case, that means that the bloodlust is ended as well, which means the vampire is not ejected for failing to feed - and this also means that a vampire who is knocked over (failed block, failed dodge, failed gfi, etc) and suffers a turnover (but NOT being wrestled to the ground or using PO, since that does not cause a turnover), would ALSO not be ejected for failing to feed.
To recap:
Vampire declares action. Vampire fails bloodlust. Vampire's action now includes bloodlust, and therefore requires feeding at the end. Vampire causes a turnover (such as failing something that knocks him to the ground, or failing a pick up). Turnover rules cause the entire action to end, preventing the rest of the action from taking place - for example, failed pick up prevents further movement and block from a Blitz action - specifically, preventing the bloodlust part of the action from taking place. Player may not feed - but player's action has ended and so the 'ejected to reserves' line is never triggered. Vampire stays on pitch. Vampire's turn is over. |
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Igvy
Joined: Apr 29, 2007
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Oct 13, 2012 - 01:38 |
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The answer for me is in the turnover and bloodlust rules.
Ill quote exactly. Turnovers -
"A coach that suffers a turnover is not allowed to take any further actions that turn, and any action being taken ends immediately even if it was only partially complete"
Then Bloodlust -
"Once the vampire has bitten the thrall he may complete his action"
So lets recap. Turnover ends your action prematurely. Feeding happens as part of the action.
So turnover -> no feeding -> sent off.
Surely there is no gray left in this now? |
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Nelphine
Joined: Apr 01, 2011
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Oct 13, 2012 - 01:48 |
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Igvy the problem is that under that reading, Bloodlust becomes part of action (basically, why should feeding specifically become part of the action, but not the rest of the bloodlust rules?):
so:
turnover -> no feeding -> no bloodlust -> not sent off |
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Igvy
Joined: Apr 29, 2007
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Oct 13, 2012 - 01:55 |
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| Nelphine wrote: | Igvy the problem is that under that reading, Bloodlust becomes part of action (basically, why should feeding specifically become part of the action, but not the rest of the bloodlust rules?):
so:
turnover -> no feeding -> no bloodlust -> not sent off |
ok, where does it state that bloodlust is not part of the action? |
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Nelphine
Joined: Apr 01, 2011
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Oct 13, 2012 - 01:58 |
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but if Bloodlust is part of the action then 'if the player does not feed, then the player is ejected to reserves' is part of the action. And if turnover causes the action to end even if partially completed, then the action is over before the player has failed to feed. And if the action is over before the player failed to feed, then the player is not sent to the reserves. |
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pythrr
Joined: Mar 07, 2006
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Oct 13, 2012 - 02:04 |
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| Garion wrote: |
Does this mean if you select pass you are not allowed to pass, or if you select blitz you are not allowed to bliz, same for blocking ?????
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For me, yes it does mean that |
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pythrr
Joined: Mar 07, 2006
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Oct 13, 2012 - 02:05 |
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| Underworlder wrote: | | Dan-Da-Man wrote: | | Underworlder wrote: |
The turnover ends your action, thus I think you should be able to feed...
But I understand how you read the rules, I can accept it |
No if you fail an action your turn ends there and then, so a tip for you if you want to pick the ball up make sure you move a thrall next to that ball as a failed pick up while suffering blood lust means bye bye vamp.
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Exactly. I ended my action failing to pick up the ball, with a thrall near me, and the vamps was sent out
I do not agree with this interpretation of the rule, but it look like it's an interpretation and not a client bug |
you are wrong
client is right
forza OBBA! |
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Igvy
Joined: Apr 29, 2007
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Oct 13, 2012 - 02:13 |
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| Nelphine wrote: | | but if Bloodlust is part of the action then 'if the player does not feed, then the player is ejected to reserves' is part of the action. And if turnover causes the action to end even if partially completed, then the action is over before the player has failed to feed. And if the action is over before the player failed to feed, then the player is not sent to the reserves. |
Ok, i see where you are coming from and in isolation I would agree if not for another clause.
"Failure to bite a thrall is a turnover and requires him to feed on a spectator (move him to the reserves box if still on the pitch)"
We do get this awesome double turnover thing going. But from this it is clear to me that without feeding he comes off the pitch.
Hopefully this makes it clear to you. If not then there isn't much more I can say; sadly it isn't very strait forward. Consistent in my mind, but not very strait forward. |
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need some practice
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