FUMBBL :: Online Blood Bowl League

Joined: Aug 11, 2010

Posted: Feb 13, 2013 - 06:38

If Runners cost the same as a Lineelf, they'd be great, but they don't. You have to pay for the Dump Off skill and that sucks because Dump Off is a skill you will hardly every use and never WANT to use because if you're using it that means your ball carrier just got hit and that's NEVER something you want to happen. I elaborated more in the other Dark Elf thread about why I don't like Dump Off and especially why I think putting Nerves Of Steel on Runners is stupid, so I won't do it again, but it really isn't that great of a skill. Like I said, if it were free, then cool beans, but it isn't. It's a skill that is useless the vast majority of the time yet is still adding to your TV.

There's also the 7 AV thing. 7 MV is great, but is it worth it when you can get an 8 AV guy for less money? I'm sure the double Runner Razamataz plays are fun when they work, but are they really as effective in the long run as good solid screening? I doubt it. Dump Off fans will always talk about the few times they won the game with a Dump Off play, but how many times did you lose one because you borked the Dump Off? It's the same with Assassins. Assassin fans will always tell you about the one time they leapt into a cage and shanked a ball carrier or the time they stabbed a Treeman and killed it, but they never talk about the scores of times they whiffed a Stab and their Assassin got blasted off the pitch the next turn.

Smeat

Joined: Nov 19, 2006

Posted: Feb 13, 2013 - 07:31

First, to the OP...

ignatzami wrote:

I'm looking to start playing Dark Elves ...
I'm going with the default 4 blitzers, 1 runner, 6 Lineman, 2 re-roll build.

I initially planned to build to a full compliment of 4x blitzers, 2x witches, two runners, and 5-6x lineman. However, upon talking to a few veteran Dark Elf coaches, I'm hearing that the Runners may not be a good investment.

...I usually ball handle with the runner, relying on Dump Off to move the ball when needed...

Runners "can be" a good investment - it depends on your opponents, and how you use them. But to start with them is risky - they are AV 7 and so vulnerable. But they can also boggle coaches who are not used to them.

(Two Runners... hmmmm... diminishing returns, maybe.)

I think 3 things are true, and most would agree:

So, unless you want to go 3 RR, all you're left with is the question of whether to take the Runner or downgrade to another Lino and bank the diff against guaranteeing your Apo before Game 2.

Imo, as a starting team, I'd take one - use them in the back on offense as an initial ballhandler (or your 2nd if you are passing to farm spp). Then use that MA 7 to handoff/pass asap to a Blitzer for the score - you want to try get those four to Blodge as much as or more than you want to skill up your Runner, and he'll probably be fine on his own.

On defense, he's a sweeper and a ballhawk (along w/ Blitzers) - if he can get the ball and get semi-safe with a Blitzer on the far side, you're in decent shape.

& more below as to how ~I~ believe Runners should be used.

MisterFurious wrote:

...I elaborated more in the other Dark Elf thread ...

A link would have been considerate.

http://fumbbl.com/index.php?name=PNphpBB2&file=viewtopic&t=21819&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=76

Quote:

... I think putting Nerves Of Steel on Runners is stupid...

Calling others "stupid" is, as I understand it, a breech of the CoC for these forums - and if not, it should be. And you do it both here and in your other post. It's certainly rude, and imo paints you with the same brush you so casually wave toward others. The fact that you don't name anyone who disagrees with you is moot. There are other ways to express oneself than attacking anyone with another opinion - unless one is just... well...

MisterFurious wrote:

If you are playing well, then you should never be using Dump Off... because it means your ball-carrier is getting hit...

This is the crux of your argument. The obvious flaw in it is that according to you "if you are playing well", you never need any skill on your ball carrier, b/c they never get hit.

Of course, if you are playing that well, you are simply outclassing your opponent, and you should have some pride and find someone other than your little brother to play against. Laughing

Even if you are "playing well", stuff happens. Including playing against an opponent who is better than you, or just luckier than they should be for one game, or that one blitz. Your argument is as over-optimistic as you accuse others of being.

I don't think that Runners are the one Player designed to carry the ball in a cage all the way to score (altho' they can do that adequately if they are indeed protected). I think they are designed for a broken field, one where there is something less than a perfect cage, or a situation where you know the cage will get penetrated (like v. Leap or desperate/lucky Dodgers). That's where they shine, and that's where NoS comes in. Yes, that can leave an AV 7 vulnerable (altho' MA 7 helps reduce those times), but the "ball carrier" is 2-3 squares from them, and that is the player who is then kept safe. And Runners will get Cas's - as will any AV 7. Putting Blodge on them is an illusion and a waste of the one skill they do start with.

Every coach knows the headache of playing against an Ag4 team that "punts", a pass deep to an empty field that then creates a footrace. You can't blitz the ballcarrier, because there is none - and they are all Ag 4, so any can pick it up on a 2+. The Runner creates a similar (not identical!) headache - blitz them all you want, but the ball won't be there when/if they go down, just like blitzing any other non-ballcarrier. (The ball may well be on the ground - just usually not near them, which is a bigger headache than otherwise.)

What Runners do is create a new dimension that the defense has to address - some offensive coaches can use that well, others can't, and some defensive coaches can deal with it and some can't.

If you can't, then you must be... well... not the type of coach who likes Runners, let's just say that.

(edits - typos - Embarassed

)

_________________
Let's go A.P.E.!

(...and what exactly do you think they do with all those dead players?...)

Last edited by Smeat on %b %13, %2013 - %07:%Feb; edited 2 times in total

Megrim

Joined: Apr 24, 2011

Posted: Feb 13, 2013 - 07:39

licker wrote:

Megrim wrote:

You can't seriously be concerned about AV7 on the Runner when you have two Witches on the pitch.

Runners are a fine piece, like any elf. All they really need is Blodge, with Dump Off being a nice additional safety valve. You shouldn't be planning on using it, but boy it sure is nice to have it when you need it.

Also, keep in mind that a DE team with two Runners on the pitch is practically impossible to dispossess.

I dunno about the witches myself, at least they start with dodge, but two seems excessive.

All runners need is blodge? All a line elf needs is blodge, and he's cheaper, and he has AV8. Yes runners are MA 7, but you have 5 (or 6 if you go 2 witches) MA7 anyway. I don't think people are taking runners for their speed :p

DO is a niche skill that really only shines when you pair it with at least pass, but best NoS. A DE runner getting blitzed is throwing out on a 4+ usually, that's not great. Anyone catching it who is marked is catching on a 3+.

These aren't PEs with doubles on the catchers. These are DEs who should play a running game with a nice cage/screen. You don't need a runner to do that, and if you think there's not a big difference between AV7 and AV8 maybe you need to play WE or Skaven a little more Wink

If you really love DO take it on a doubles on someone else, it's still nominally cheaper than actually buying a runner, but I'd guess guard/MB is a much higher doubles priority Wink

Anyway, 2 runners just means 2 fewer players on the pitch after a half of them getting blitzed. Y'all seem to think that defending DO players is actually about trying to get the ball, that's just a side benefit if the interception/bounce is kind.

The real key to defending most elf teams, is simply to keep on removing them from the pitch, and runners, AV7, no defensive skills, go off faster than linemen. Sure sure, DO every now and then rolls 5+ for everything and you get a free spp out of it, but meh, it's really not worth building a player around.

Other than a PE catcher, since he can DO to another catcher with success at 2+ 5- (interception) 2+ (w rr) usually. That's a success rate of ~67%.

Your DE on a 4+ 5- 3+ is only ~28%.

I was quite brief, so its my fault, but you missed the point.

You'd still run the standard Blodge/SS spam with your DE team. There is no question about that - what differs is that if you let the other guy get two uncontested dice on your carrier, you have a Blodge AV8 lino taking two dice versus a Blodge AV7 runner taking two dice and giving you the possibility of controlling where the ball goes anyway.

Neither situation is optimal (and the whole point of Blodge/SS is that you don't let it happen), but if its going to happen, I know which one I'd pick. Furthermore, let's say that our screening is good, and we only give them one die. Is the lino still better?

If you are then going to say that AV8 is better then AV7, then I will tell you that +1 movement will let me screen better and make it harder to get two dice in. Additionally, when the AV thing is brought up, it is inevitably in the context of POMB + Tackle.

So, you don't really want to get hit either way. If this then is the case, I'd take better movement to avoid taking the hit in the first place, over taking the hit and having better odds at surviving.

Now you might still argue that AV8 > AV7 on aggregate, blah blah blah... but honestly, if that's all you cared about, you'd be playing HE. Having a bipolar view about defense against elves = kill all mans is cute, but irrelevant. There does, in fact, exist a world of actual games outside the box.

The runner option adds flexibility for when your screens break and your players misbehave.

And your maths is off, because you forgot that not all receivers are going to be marked.

Rat_Salat

Joined: Apr 22, 2011

Posted: Feb 13, 2013 - 09:00

I was having an awful time with dark elves... until I dumped the runner.

Seriously, just carry with a random blodger who you want SPP on.

3 blitzer
1 witch
2 rr

Verminardo

Joined: Sep 27, 2006

Posted: Feb 13, 2013 - 12:01

I think it's rather cool about Dark Elves that there can be different philosophies on play style, skill choices and positionals as well. Some players like to play without the Witches, others prefer a single Witch and yet others (me included) like two Witches at higher TV. Same goes for Runners and even Assassins, I guess. The only undebatable positionals are the superb Blitzers of course.

Personally I think Runners just aren't worth it. Dump Off without supportive passing skills will fail more often than not, it only becomes really effective when you have Pass and NoS. So that's two skills and no protective skills whatsoever, your Runner will likely get killed before he ever gets Dodge. You could develop a Runner as Thrower but Dark Elves don't really need a Thrower and he doesn't even start with Pass. You could give him Blodge and Sure Hands but that would just make him a Wood Elf Lineman at +10k, better to give Sure Hands to a Blitzer and have one less AV7 player on the pitch. Finally, you could indeed give him Leader, then you basically have an unskilled Wood Elf Lineman plus a reroll at 100k, and with AV7 and no protective skills you will have to get by without the Leader reroll in the second half every other game (when he isn't MNG, that is). I'd much rather have +40k TV, a reliable team reroll, and a Dark Elf Lineman with AV8 and Block or Dodge who has a much better chance of staying on the pitch to help me win the game.

The most important point however, as others have already said, is this: All the SPP that your Runners will accumulate before they inevitably get killed would be much better invested in your Blitzers and Witches, who Nuffle be willing may survive much longer.

licker

Joined: Jul 10, 2009

Posted: Feb 13, 2013 - 16:09

Megrim wrote:

I was quite brief, so its my fault, but you missed the point.

Nope, I didn't. You just don't agree with me.

Megrim wrote:

You'd still run the standard Blodge/SS spam with your DE team. There is no question about that - what differs is that if you let the other guy get two uncontested dice on your carrier, you have a Blodge AV8 lino taking two dice versus a Blodge AV7 runner taking two dice and giving you the possibility of controlling where the ball goes anyway.

The point is taking a runner is adding TV and AV7 for an additional MA7. Which you don't need that badly, since you should already have 5. I said that already though.

I would rather the av8 gets hit than the av7. You are simply too concerned with the other team actually trying to get the ball. As I said, not all teams are interested in actually getting the ball. Just getting it out is frequently enough, and as I showed, the DE chances of keeping it on a dump off are sub 30% (more on this later). A solid strategy vs. any elf (and rat) team is to simply remove their players. If they score in the first 5 turns but are down players, then your job is still done.

Megrim wrote:

Neither situation is optimal (and the whole point of Blodge/SS is that you don't let it happen), but if its going to happen, I know which one I'd pick. Furthermore, let's say that our screening is good, and we only give them one die. Is the lino still better?

Any blodge is fine. And again, AV8 is much better than AV7. If you don't want to understand that your game will likely suffer.

Megrim wrote:

If you are then going to say that AV8 is better then AV7, then I will tell you that +1 movement will let me screen better and make it harder to get two dice in. Additionally, when the AV thing is brought up, it is inevitably in the context of POMB + Tackle.

I already addressed this, you ignored it. For the 3rd time. You have 5 MA7 players (likely) without any runners. That's enough. Extra AV helps no matter the combo against (other than claw). I'm not sure why you are worried about pomb/tackle, but that hurts AV7 much much more than hurts AV8. Simple maths on that. If you take the runner you are giving your opponent a free skill (20k TV over taking a lino) as far as TV is concerned. What you are getting out of it is very little.

Megrim wrote:

So, you don't really want to get hit either way. If this then is the case, I'd take better movement to avoid taking the hit in the first place, over taking the hit and having better odds at surviving.

Again, 5 MA7 players already, having a 6th doesn't really buy you that much. Why do you ignore this?

Megrim wrote:

Now you might still argue that AV8 > AV7 on aggregate, blah blah blah... but honestly, if that's all you cared about, you'd be playing HE. Having a bipolar view about defense against elves = kill all mans is cute, but irrelevant. There does, in fact, exist a world of actual games outside the box.

Ehh? HE have more AV7 than DE dude. Well assuming you play with catchers, and only take one or two witches. Elf vs. elf is different from 'bash' vs. elfs. Elf vs. elf and you have a harder time screening and the games play very differently. Bash vs. elf and the goal is to reduce the elfs, because you're more limited on offense as the elfs try to generate their hits on your cage.

And yes, AV8 is much better than AV7. You simply have no counter for this.

Megrim wrote:

The runner option adds flexibility for when your screens break and your players misbehave.

Sure, he adds flexibility. But when your screens break and your players misbehave who's to say that that flexibility is even useful to you? If you can't set up the DO screen correctly then, well, again, it's useless.

Megrim wrote:

And your maths is off, because you forgot that not all receivers are going to be marked.

No, my math was correct, I assumed the targets would be marked. You can do the math for them not being marked if you want, it doesn't really make the strategy much more viable. The odd times that you get 'free' passes from DO are situations where you're already so far ahead positionally that DO wouldn't matter anyway.

In other situations it's occasionally helpful, mostly neutral, and generally simply not worth the price you pay. Consider that using it gives your opponent a free 1/6 chance at an interception (in many situations) and really, how cool is it to intercept the ball and still have the rest of your turn to play out?

ignatzami

Joined: Aug 18, 2008

Posted: Feb 13, 2013 - 18:16

Ok, a lot of good advice. Let me try to summarize, and feel free to correct anything I've missed.

The main suggestion seems to be that Runners aren't worth the cost, and that I'd be better off with a skilled Lineman, then a Runner. This makes sense, but I'm curious about the benefit at start. If I drop the Runner, for a Lineman, I've saved 10k, and gained a point of AV, but it'll be several games before that lineman skills up. I wonder if in an 11 game season I won't see the benefit on the switch until too late.

Second, the Dump Off debate. I've seen a veteran Pro Elf team use Dump Off, and screens, really well. This was one of the things that made me take the runner to start. I can understand the issue with Dump Off being a risk. However, I'm still not convinced it's an insurmountable risk.

For example, given that the runner is going to be retrieving the ball, and it's relatively easy to gain SPPs on a quick pass, would the piece be more worthwhile if I selected defensive skills first, block, dodge, and then worried about passing skills with the piece?

As for runner, v. witches, I fully intend to build to two witches long-term. I don't think that having, or not having the witches makes the runner a better, or worse choice.

As for the three blitzer, one witch, 7 lino, two re-roll build, I don't see this as being any better. Sure, you've got the witch for sideline work, but you still have an AV7 piece on the field, only two re-rolls, and one less block piece. Am I missing something?

I think that's the main arguments. I'm still on the fence about the Runner, but I think if I take him I won't go leader first.

licker

Joined: Jul 10, 2009

Posted: Feb 13, 2013 - 20:26

Pro Elfs do DO with NoS, my numbers showed that it makes a huge difference in the success rate. Couple in that PE Catchers have, catch, and no DE is ever going to take catch, and there ya go too.

Further, any designated elf can pick up the ball and make simple passes, you don't need a runner to do that. I grant that the extra MA helps a little there, but not so much to really make much of a difference ultimately, since you usually have 2 guys in the backfield anyway.

Really though a lineman would skill at the same rate as a runner if you use the lineman in that place. Not sure that you'd want to that from the start, but at the start it doesn't really matter who is doing what, other than getting a blodger quick and having them be your carrier.

As soon as you get an AG5 lineman, there's your ball getter/passer.

ignatzami

Joined: Aug 18, 2008

Posted: Feb 13, 2013 - 21:56

You make a good case, so you're suggesting drop the runner, for a Lineman, and bank the extra towards an Apo after game 1?

Cycle linos into the backfield for the 1SPP quick pass, to help them get that first skill?

Do you ever foresee Runners having a place on the roster? Or would 4x Blitzer, 2x Witch Nx Lineman be the ideal in your mind?

Would you still advocate the first regular skill lino get Kick?

BillBrasky

Joined: Feb 15, 2005

Posted: Feb 13, 2013 - 22:00

You should not take runners, at all.

That's my take.

Ultimately you want:
4 blitzers
2 witches
7 Linos

Megrim

Joined: Apr 24, 2011

Posted: Feb 14, 2013 - 00:29

licker wrote:

Megrim wrote:

I was quite brief, so its my fault, but you missed the point.

Nope, I didn't. You just don't agree with me.

Megrim wrote:

You'd still run the standard Blodge/SS spam with your DE team. There is no question about that - what differs is that if you let the other guy get two uncontested dice on your carrier, you have a Blodge AV8 lino taking two dice versus a Blodge AV7 runner taking two dice and giving you the possibility of controlling where the ball goes anyway.

The point is taking a runner is adding TV and AV7 for an additional MA7. Which you don't need that badly, since you should already have 5. I said that already though.

I would rather the av8 gets hit than the av7. You are simply too concerned with the other team actually trying to get the ball. As I said, not all teams are interested in actually getting the ball. Just getting it out is frequently enough, and as I showed, the DE chances of keeping it on a dump off are sub 30% (more on this later). A solid strategy vs. any elf (and rat) team is to simply remove their players. If they score in the first 5 turns but are down players, then your job is still done.

Megrim wrote:

Neither situation is optimal (and the whole point of Blodge/SS is that you don't let it happen), but if its going to happen, I know which one I'd pick. Furthermore, let's say that our screening is good, and we only give them one die. Is the lino still better?

Any blodge is fine. And again, AV8 is much better than AV7. If you don't want to understand that your game will likely suffer.

Megrim wrote:

If you are then going to say that AV8 is better then AV7, then I will tell you that +1 movement will let me screen better and make it harder to get two dice in. Additionally, when the AV thing is brought up, it is inevitably in the context of POMB + Tackle.

I already addressed this, you ignored it. For the 3rd time. You have 5 MA7 players (likely) without any runners. That's enough. Extra AV helps no matter the combo against (other than claw). I'm not sure why you are worried about pomb/tackle, but that hurts AV7 much much more than hurts AV8. Simple maths on that. If you take the runner you are giving your opponent a free skill (20k TV over taking a lino) as far as TV is concerned. What you are getting out of it is very little.

Megrim wrote:

So, you don't really want to get hit either way. If this then is the case, I'd take better movement to avoid taking the hit in the first place, over taking the hit and having better odds at surviving.

Again, 5 MA7 players already, having a 6th doesn't really buy you that much. Why do you ignore this?

Megrim wrote:

Now you might still argue that AV8 > AV7 on aggregate, blah blah blah... but honestly, if that's all you cared about, you'd be playing HE. Having a bipolar view about defense against elves = kill all mans is cute, but irrelevant. There does, in fact, exist a world of actual games outside the box.

Ehh? HE have more AV7 than DE dude. Well assuming you play with catchers, and only take one or two witches. Elf vs. elf is different from 'bash' vs. elfs. Elf vs. elf and you have a harder time screening and the games play very differently. Bash vs. elf and the goal is to reduce the elfs, because you're more limited on offense as the elfs try to generate their hits on your cage.

And yes, AV8 is much better than AV7. You simply have no counter for this.

Megrim wrote:

The runner option adds flexibility for when your screens break and your players misbehave.

Sure, he adds flexibility. But when your screens break and your players misbehave who's to say that that flexibility is even useful to you? If you can't set up the DO screen correctly then, well, again, it's useless.

Megrim wrote:

And your maths is off, because you forgot that not all receivers are going to be marked.

No, my math was correct, I assumed the targets would be marked. You can do the math for them not being marked if you want, it doesn't really make the strategy much more viable. The odd times that you get 'free' passes from DO are situations where you're already so far ahead positionally that DO wouldn't matter anyway.

In other situations it's occasionally helpful, mostly neutral, and generally simply not worth the price you pay. Consider that using it gives your opponent a free 1/6 chance at an interception (in many situations) and really, how cool is it to intercept the ball and still have the rest of your turn to play out?

No, no, you really did. The point, was that runners help you win games you'd otherwise lose.

Insofar as the actual specifics, you can be obtuse with imaginary scenarios for as long as you like, but at the end of the day, what matters is whether the DE team in question is going to win more games.

That's where, again, you missed the point. AV7 is worse than AV8? Sure. At what? Getting hit. That's it. But as you said yourself, you're getting hit for two dice anyway - so the problem is not whether the ball carrier goes out or stays down, the problem is where the ball ends up.

If you, seriously think, that saving 10 team value is worth giving the ability to control where the ball ends up on a sack, then I'm sorry, but you need to get your head out of the box.

(just so you know, runners are 80k, linos are 70 Wink

)

The guy who started the thread didn't ask for "optimal box environment advice on how to min-max the shit out of a DE team". He asked for advice on a scheduled league, with (probably) a variety of teams and playing styles. Having runners on the team will help him with this.

If you want to insist on doing the same thing over and over again, be my guest bro.

licker

Joined: Jul 10, 2009

Posted: Feb 14, 2013 - 03:21

It's as though you think I play much box. I play hardly any box. I even run a DE team in a league, and play against DE teams in other leagues.

I have no idea what your qualifications on fumbbl are, not that that really matters, but you simply don't have a track record here for anyone too look at. Maybe you're the greatest DE coach ever, but honestly, I'm not the only one in this thread dumping on runners, I'm just the smartest one Wink

Do you have any evidence that runners help you win more games? My experience suggests otherwise, but unless you actually have some evidence beyond 'AV7 works everywhere other than the box, bro!' I think we're going to have to chalk your opinion up to your imagination.

And since you seem to think that the runner will only get hit when he's carrying the ball, well, I posit you really have not played many DE teams against this variety of other teams you mention.

The advice on 'best DE roster' is not box specific either. It's DE specific. Assassins and runners are unnecessary additions to the roster. They cost more than a lineman, provide niche skills that are generally ineffective, and are AV7. Seriously, AV7 is bad in a pomb environment. And yes, one extra AV7 you don't need just makes your team weaker. In that case it's like giving your opponent an 80k bonus.

But hey, prove us wrong, make a DE team and play it with two runners or whatever you think is optimal. It's not like that team can't win, DE are a good race even if you want to gimp them.

If you want to maximize them, skip the runner, pray for an early AG5, and that you can blodge up your blitzers quickly. Taking a runner just slows down spp for other more important players.

Again, the numbers don't lie. DO without supporting skills (pass, accurate, NoS) simply does not generate many completions. Even worse, DEs don't have anything beyond the simply AG4 to use as catchers, and most decent coaches are going to mark up your cage/screen. If they can't do that, then you've likely won the position battle to the degree that DO doesn't matter anyway. So the odds of a successful DO are less than 30% in the majority of situations where it would matter.

Now you're trading seeing if they actually get the runner down (or the ball out) for a 70% chance that the ball will be out anyway, regardless of what happens to the runner.

It's hard to see why anyone would think this is a winning strategy. Sometimes you get lucky I guess, but basing a team strategy around a gimmick skill which fails more than half the time (being generous there...). I dunno bro, not that sharp.

Nelphine

Joined: Apr 01, 2011

Posted: Feb 14, 2013 - 04:00

I think Licker's most valid point is this:

In a small number of games AV 8 will be key to winning.
In a small number of games (that may be slightly higher than the previous small number, and my guess it WILL be slightly higher), DO will be key to winning.

In most games, DO won't really do a lot.
In most games, AV 8 (on your ball carrier) won't really do a lot.

In those games where neither DO or AV 8 matter, then we assume your ball carrier scores without problem. In these games, who do you want getting the SPP? Someone who requires 6 SPP or 16 SPP to get blodge?

Further, we can probably assume that in any given 2 games, neither AV 8 nor DO will matter, because both of them combined still only matter in a small number of games; in those 2 games then, you could skill a blitzer to blodge. Heck, if you're lucky, you can do it in one game, and therefore in those 2 games, you might even end up with TWO blodging blitzers.

Now: In ALL games, a blodging ball carrier is better than a DO (or even Block/DO) ball carrier.

But if you have a runner, then the ONLY reason to have him is for ball carrying; otherwise, you'd just take a linemen. But if the runner is ball carrying, then the blitzer is NOT being skilled. Which means it takes between 3 and 5 games to get a blodging ball carrier, instead of 1-2 games.

Therefore, while DO MIGHT be (in absolute terms) slightly better at winning games than AV 8, the opportunity cost of NOT skilling your blitzers is absolutely prohibitive.

Do not take a runner.

Last edited by Nelphine on %b %14, %2013 - %04:%Feb; edited 4 times in total

Megrim

Joined: Apr 24, 2011

Posted: Feb 14, 2013 - 04:01

So after all the posturing, you are down to questioning my ability? Really? This is coming from a guy who purports to give advice on how to play DE, yet doesn't know how much a runner costs.

I've already written what I wanted to say about the runner, so I think I'll leave it to the prospective DE player to decide for themselves. If we've moved onto the 'fallacious arguments' stage of of the discussion, I think I'll leave it there.

Thank you for explaining your point of view.

Nelphine

Joined: Apr 01, 2011

Posted: Feb 14, 2013 - 04:02

Megrim, any comment on my point?