| Poll |
| How toxic do you find FUMBBL's culture? |
| 1 (One of the most healthy communities I've ever been a part of) |
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51% |
[ 81 ] |
| 2 (Nothing the article describes happens at FUMBBL) |
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24% |
[ 39 ] |
| 3 (About average for an online community) |
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13% |
[ 21 ] |
| 4 (I'm worried about some of it's elements) |
|
7% |
[ 12 ] |
| 5 (So toxic that I tried to avoid it as much as I can) |
|
2% |
[ 4 ] |
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| Total Votes : 157 |
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PsyPhiGrad
Joined: Dec 22, 2007
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 Posted:
Apr 05, 2016 - 07:46 |
 
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From another discussion on this topic.
| Quote: | You raise a valid point Dave, and we could argue about the use of the word terrorism if you want, but I think that kind of misses the point. This kind of harassment is really common in the various nerd and geek communities. I've seen it happen personally, heard about many incidents from friends, and noticed that most people try to excuse or ignore it. Sometimes I call it out, but I'm ashamed to say not always.
There are thousands of geek-doms and fandoms out there packed with really amazing, interesting, and passionate people; but there genuinely is a dark side that we need to acknowledge. A large subset of predominantly white males, particularly amongst video gamers and tabletop players from my experience, are not welcoming to women. It isn't a case of women having thin skin. They genuinely face a level of gender-focused harassment that I know I will NEVER have to worry about.
If I had to venture an explanation, it would be that geek communities have historically given socially awkward, bullied, or outcast males a safe place to to gather and feel comfortable. When women (and sometimes other minorities) want to join in, some of them feel threatened, and perhaps even enjoy the thrill of having a bit of power for a change. Obviously this doesn't apply to all members of the community, and I genuinely want to believe that the misogynist cretins are in the minority, but the problem is real and we can make our community stronger and more welcoming by taking it seriously.
The woman who wrote this is brave for putting it out there. We could pick it apart and ignore the message over semantics, or we can keep in the back of our minds and call out bullshit amongst our peers next time the dice are rolling. |
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Dunenzed
Joined: Oct 28, 2011
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| Posted:
Apr 05, 2016 - 08:20 |
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Oh dear. Its appears I'm a white male. Probably explains why I've failed to recognise any gender bullying issues here on Fumbbl. I know there are issues with the rest of the internet, but I think someone will have to spell it out in a Fumbbl context? |
_________________
Join the Human League Premiership! |
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Strider84
Joined: Jun 03, 2009
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| Posted:
Apr 05, 2016 - 08:38 |
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Average age is a lot higher on fumbbl thus people are more mature and less toxic. There is always the one off troll, but the site rules are strictly enforced which makes it a lot harder to troll around.
I guess this is a thread to thank the Admins for their hard work.
Thanks guys! |
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Wreckage
Joined: Aug 15, 2004
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| Posted:
Apr 05, 2016 - 08:59 |
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Since I'm not a woman I can't exactly tell how people behave towards one in a given situation.
Because of that, when a woman tells me a story that depicts her social interaction in a gender related way, I pay close attention to the examples she is giving, to get an idea how serious the issue is. After all generally I can only see the situations through my own encounters, which are none.
As a general rule of thumb any human being can probably go by: If you think everyone else is the ****, you're probably the ****.
But I get that its more complicated than that and the possibility shouldn't be ruled out that there are some seriously messed up people out there.
In this case the example was that of a 13 year old girl going into a gaming store and getting confronted with a poor possibly distasteful gender joke about her being old enough to play games classified as rape.
Poor and distasteful jokes and nerdish behavior (some sort of self-awkwardness) are most certainly part of tabletop culture. So, a person that perceives this sort of thing as an assault on her persona, will certainly most frequently feel threatened in such a place.
In this case the girl reacted by running out of the store like as if the man had tried to assault her. Which begs the question if she had reacted the same way to a girl her age making a similarly poor joke. So after carefully listening to the whole situation it seems more to me like the woman who wrote that article has likely a sexist bias towards men and treats them in demeaning ways on a regular basis, like as depicted in the case she made. Reacting as if a man tried to assault her when he is just trying to be funny. Since it's not funny in the least to be accused of rape as a man and even very dangerous, I wouldn't be surprised in the least if that sort of behavior spawns an even more aggressive reaction within people with a short fuse. |
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Verminardo
Joined: Sep 27, 2006
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| Posted:
Apr 05, 2016 - 09:03 |
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Oh for the sake of my sanity I had to skip most of the (predictable) replies to this thread.
Luckily there are (almost) no females on Fumbbl anyway (luckily for the women, that is). And there's less of the typical "you are not a manly man if you do not bla bla bla" bogus on the forums these days than there used to be. If you take the forums, I've seen better and I've seen worse, the forums are relatively small but they are not actively moderated and passive aggression is tolerated, so that's toxic by one definition. On the other hand, it's a small and pretty personal community and there are (almost) no teenagers around, so that's far less toxic than it could be. No death threats, no gross insults, etc.
Also, don't mistake the forums for Fumbbl. The majority of Fumbblers do not post on the forums. The real Fumbbl is the matches being played, the chat with your opponent, and spectator chat. I've had very few, if any, negative experiences there. We have a few notorious black sheep but less than we used to have, and it's all relatively harmless. The negative experiences I've had were all on the forums or in blog comments, and they're (sadly) to be expected on the internet.
So I'd say it's one of the most healthy communities I've been part of, but still it can be somewhat toxic at times, as I'm sure this thread will easily demonstrate. |
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SirIndigo
Joined: Sep 10, 2015
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| Posted:
Apr 05, 2016 - 09:08 |
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Wreckage, I don't think the author was saying that that particular encounter equates to rape, but rather an environment where it's socially accepted to make those jokes to 13 year old girls is also an environment that someone who would grope women, for instance, would gravitate towards. |
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coombz
Joined: Oct 12, 2010
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| Posted:
Apr 05, 2016 - 09:11 |
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| buuface wrote: | Coomz i think are wrong.
Firstly I doubt the majority of Fumbllers are TT gamers first and computer gamers second. Though i don't think we can prove that without a poll. Please correct me if there are already statistics.
Secondly when we talk about the ratio of general computer gamers/tabletop gamers who are also sexually frustrated dorks, and therefore more likely to be a bit rapey, the latter wins out simply because being a general, gamer is so much more common and accepted in this day and age.
Tabletop gaming communities are much more enclosed. Tabletop gaming communities are much more more niche and isolated. Nasty members within these communities can feel secure in sexually harassing females because of this isolation, and the fact that they are more likely to be surrounded by 'like-minded' individuals within the immediate environment.
What do you say to that? |
you know, now that you put it like that I can see the truth and logic in it 
i've mostly been tt / board gaming just with friends in recent memory, it's been a looooooong time since i set foot in a GW store or the like. maybe that explains my forgetfullness somewhat
i would have liked to think that such communities would self-police to deal with people who continually demonstrate inappropriate behaviour, but i suppose if it's a very small/niche group and all the members are equally bleeped in the head, that won't happen ;] |
_________________
They found 10 grams, seized my whip and took my knife...
That's Trailer Park Life. |
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Wreckage
Joined: Aug 15, 2004
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| Posted:
Apr 05, 2016 - 09:19 |
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| SirIndigo wrote: | | Wreckage, I don't think the author was saying that that particular encounter equates to rape, but rather an environment where it's socially accepted to make those jokes to 13 year old girls is also an environment that someone who would grope women, for instance, would gravitate towards. |
I guess, if given, any serious example of grope or even any form of talk that would seem demeaning to the person would probably spawn my awareness. |
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BillBrasky
Joined: Feb 15, 2005
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| Posted:
Apr 05, 2016 - 09:20 |
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To the original post, I find the community here tip-top, and well policed by the Admins. Of the hundreds of coaches that I have played here, I can't think of a single one that I abhor the idea of playing Blood Bowl with for 90 minutes.
About the video, maybe I read too much into it, but isn't it ironic to call one's self a "warrior" of any type, when you are trying to encourage thoughtfulness and respect? Warriors kill one another.
Instead of "social justice warriors," shouldn't they call themselves "thoughtfulness and respectfulness inspiring gender-neutral pronouns?" |
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Purplegoo
Joined: Mar 23, 2006
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| Posted:
Apr 05, 2016 - 09:23 |
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We're only on page two, and already I'm editing language.
This is, doubtlessly, an emotive subject. Please remember site rules when discussing it.
I play a different online game with a woman, and some of her stories regarding messages she has received and in game chat she has endured have shocked me. If I see or hear of any of that sort of behaviour on FUMBBL or see any of it at a tabletop event, I would get involved pretty quickly. We should be zero tolerance.
Someone noted above that Blood Bowlers are generally that little bit older, and I think that helps us with stuff like this. We probably do better than average in terms of these large, clearly unacceptable incidents. We could always do better, and talking about it is probably helpful.
Large incidents aside, what gives with minis of naked women? It may seem trivial, but it hardly points to an atmosphere of acceptance and diversity. That's probably a separate issue / hobby horse not for this thread, but little things all count.
But mainly, behave, please. |
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coombz
Joined: Oct 12, 2010
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| Posted:
Apr 05, 2016 - 09:31 |
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| Purplegoo wrote: | | Large incidents aside, what gives with minis of naked women? |
you seem so clued in on most other topics that I have to wonder if this right here is deliberate obtuseness 
"what gives" with, well...everything...is that companies know their audience, and they also like making money
it's a fairly simple concept |
_________________
They found 10 grams, seized my whip and took my knife...
That's Trailer Park Life. |
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SirIndigo
Joined: Sep 10, 2015
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| Posted:
Apr 05, 2016 - 09:38 |
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| BillBrasky wrote: |
About the video, maybe I read too much into it, but isn't it ironic to call one's self a "warrior" of any type, when you are trying to encourage thoughtfulness and respect? Warriors kill one another.
Instead of "social justice warriors," shouldn't they call themselves "thoughtfulness and respectfulness inspiring gender-neutral pronouns?" |
The term is usually used as an insult. |
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Endzone
Joined: Apr 01, 2008
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| Posted:
Apr 05, 2016 - 09:38 |
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@PsyPhiGrad
The community here is really good but it is, as far as I know, almost entirely male. Because lots of us have been playing here for a long time and many have met each other at table-top events we are not completely anonymous to each other and I think that has a positive effect on our online behaviour. I suspect though, that as with any large group of men, you would find varying degrees of enlightenment about feminism and feminist issues here. I also play online chess and can say, as a man, I regularly get abusive comments made to me there, but never here.
I would be careful with assumptions about the Fumbbl community mirroring other gaming community demographics or the culture you might find in a gaming store. There are loads of really decent guys here, the average age is quite high and includes lots of family men. I know the intention is for this site to be 'family friendly' and would like to think we can all enjoy an abuse free gaming experience here irrespective of gender, race etc. It is hard for any of us men to guess what the online gaming experience is like here for women, I can only hope your experience is similar to mine. |
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Endzone
Joined: Apr 01, 2008
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| Posted:
Apr 05, 2016 - 09:41 |
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| Purplegoo wrote: | We're only on page two, and already I'm editing language.
This is, doubtlessly, an emotive subject. Please remember site rules when discussing it.
I play a different online game with a woman, and some of her stories regarding messages she has received and in game chat she has endured have shocked me. If I see or hear of any of that sort of behaviour on FUMBBL or see any of it at a tabletop event, I would get involved pretty quickly. We should be zero tolerance.
Someone noted above that Blood Bowlers are generally that little bit older, and I think that helps us with stuff like this. We probably do better than average in terms of these large, clearly unacceptable incidents. We could always do better, and talking about it is probably helpful.
Large incidents aside, what gives with minis of naked women? It may seem trivial, but it hardly points to an atmosphere of acceptance and diversity. That's probably a separate issue / hobby horse not for this thread, but little things all count.
But mainly, behave, please. |
+1 |
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Purplegoo
Joined: Mar 23, 2006
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| Posted:
Apr 05, 2016 - 10:03 |
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| coombz wrote: | | Purplegoo wrote: | | Large incidents aside, what gives with minis of naked women? |
you seem so clued in on most other topics that I have to wonder if this right here is deliberate obtuseness
"what gives" with, well...everything...is that companies know their audience, and they also like making money
it's a fairly simple concept |
Of course. I suppose I meant 'what gives with us accepting this as OK', not 'Why would you sell these / who would buy them'. |
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